AMD announce new processors

[Ray Proudfoot]

Overnight AMD have released news on their latest Ryzen 7000 processors. Clock speed up to 5.7Ghz. 

In late September Intel will be announcing their latest processors.

I was going to start deciding on a new PC this month but hanging on a little longer seems sensible.

[Daniel Saffran]

I've gone for AMD on my current Build to max out on Cores and VRAM and learned one Thing: I'll go for Intel+Nvidia again (Rocket-Lake / Lovelace) as soon as they are out. One Reason being that Prepar3D is just not able to use the Resources efficiently. The other Reason being stability and annoying Issues I never have experienced on Intel (USB Discos, Microstutters ...).

"Disclaimer"
I don't want to start a "Team Blue/Green or Red is better / the best" Discussion / War. We live in times where you can again get great (and bad!) Products from either Party (if available xD). So it is even more personal choice now, and that is great!
I just want to share my personal Experience about that one time trying AMD. Never really regret it, but would not do it again either  

[Markus Burkhard]

4 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Intel will be releasing Raptor lake 13900K Oct 13th I believe (with pre-orders on Sept 28th one day after AMD makes 7000 series available for sale), or at least making some type of announcement ... it is supposed to be a tad faster in single thread performance by 4% over the7950X and has more cores 24 (but keep in mind eCores).

Sure, release the 24 cores monster first, the one that gamers don't need but will buy anyway, because they'll want it immediately. Bit of a cash-grab there by Intel.

Buying a 24 core CPU for flightsim purposes is complete nonsense. Even though both P3D and MSFS can use multiple cores, and so does FSL software, nothing in PC flightsim will be optimised to really take advantage of that many cores, for many years to come. Heck DCS is still basically a single-core sim. 
So I would recommend anyone reading not to fall for the 13900K trap. Save money (and power requirements) by either shopping for the new AMD 7000 series, or at the very least wait for a 13000 series Intel CPU that is at least one model below the flagship.
For me personally the AMD 7000 series seems to be the winner this time around, as the rumoured power requirements of the next gen Intel silicon is borderline insanity. I'll hold my final judgment for when the specifications are here, but looking at the 12000 series chips and the rumours for the new one, it does not look too promising for Intel to be perfectly honest. 

[Markus Burkhard]

11 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

That's false, well at least for P3D ... skip forward to 10:27 and you can see plenty of multi-core activity:

Agree that 24 cores would not be terribly useful for P3D, 12 real cores would do it for me.

I know Rob, that's what I was trying to say. It can use multiple cores, and yes will of course also "use" 24 of those. But it is nowhere near optimised for that many. Hence me recommending to save money there and use it for a better GPU, faster RAM, fast SSD and so on.

[Nuno M Pinto]

I also agree that the 7900X seems to be the best next-gen CPU to go for. I'm not in the hunt for a new system, but if i was i would definitely go for that one.

[Daniel Saffran]

19 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

There was an EFI/BIOS update for AMD 5000 series that solved the micro stutter issue ... it was related to the TPM (Trusted Platform Module).  Intel have their own fair share of little issues from performance to security to power to heat.  Can't say I've noticed any difference in stability between the two after OC testing and getting Intel/AMD working optimally ... both seem very stable.

Yeah I know, always updated to the latest BIOS (and therefore AGESA). But it took very long / multiple Version until AMD got it sorted out (mostly, still have some micros now).

Sure, had / have now fundamental stability Issues either, even OCed!  
It was just Sim-wise unstable when you loose your Joysticks and it was annoying to regularly hear the crippled sound due to stutters.

19 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

AMD responds to lower latency RAM better than Intel, so RAM choice is very important with AMD, I gained a 15% increase across the board by simply moving up from 3000Mhz CL16 64GB to 3600Mhz CL14 64GB.  

I would add that it is more important to use at least 3600 MHz to have the FCLK on 1:1 (and at that speed the lowest CL which one can afford). For Ryzen 5xxx - has to be seen what the Sweet-Spot for 7xxx is for a 1:1 Clock-Ratio!

[Daniel Saffran]

woah?! 56 C for an OCed 5950x? Impressive, what do you use as Cooler? I use mine as Room-Heater 

 

What I forgot to add for the Reasons moving back to Intel/Nvidia: The "incompatibilities" between P3D and AMD GPUs (white flickering on SSAA >= 4, grid pattern on transparent Textures). Though they are purely LM's fault, there is no real hope that they will fix it.

[Markus Burkhard]

50 minutes ago, Daniel Saffran said:

What I forgot to add for the Reasons moving back to Intel/Nvidia: The "incompatibilities" between P3D and AMD GPUs (white flickering on SSAA >= 4, grid pattern on transparent Textures). Though they are purely LM's fault, there is no real hope that they will fix it.

I guess you're aware of this but I would just like to add for anyone else reading here; There is no requirement to pair Intel CPUs with Nvidia GPUs, there's no mandatory link between any of AMD's, Intel's or Nvidia's products.
So if someone has issues with AMD GPUs in a sim, there's no reason to switch the entire platform to Intel if a Nvidia GPU is desired. Nor does one need an AMD GPU if one of the new Ryzen 7000 series CPUs is desired. 

There is just a small advantage if one uses both AMD CPU and GPU, in which there is certain memory sharing capability available that might increase performance in certain use-cases. But I've never read anything about this being a groundbreaking advantage. It's more like an added bonus but does not necessitate to pair the two.

Anyone is free to match between the three suppliers this autumn. I would just like to remind that it will be important to not simply compare price vs. performance, but also take power consumption into consideration. 

[Daniel Saffran]

On 9/4/2022 at 3:20 PM, Markus Burkhard said:

I guess you're aware of this but I would just like to add for anyone else reading here; There is no requirement to pair Intel CPUs with Nvidia GPUs, there's no mandatory link between any of AMD's, Intel's or Nvidia's products.

Yeah, absolutely true! Thanks for Clarification  

[Nihar Modak]

Cool

[Ray Proudfoot]

$740 will equate to around 700GBP given the way Sterling is going. We’re you not tempted to wait for Intel with 6Ghz rumoured?

[Alexander Polcher]

@Markus Burkhard regarding the current discussion I would like to enhance the topic and ask you about your opinion regarding a "minor upgrade".

My system specs as shown below (CPU i7 8700k @ 5,0GHz with AIO) have changed as I have ordered a new PSU (be quiet! 750W Pure Power 11 FM Modular 80+ Gold) and I am searching for a new GPU. The current situation shows some opportunities for RTX 3080 (especially Founders Edition) and RTX 3080 Ti. The 3080 FE would be available on eBay for 600€ incl. OVP plus receipt and 3080 Ti's are around 800-850€. 3080's are usually equipped with 10GB RAM and 3080 Ti's with 12GB.

Will the Ti version anyhow be bottlenecked or slowed down by my i7 8700k and a 3080 would be sufficient, or would the Ti version bringt a noticeable performance boost?

Would be nice to have some hardware crack feedback because I am literally lost in this topic and the new 40xx series seems not to be suitable for me as I do not own my own powerplant

[Alexander Polcher]

16 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

May I suggest solar panels and a good battery storage system, save you considerable money in the long run.  

Is this for MSFS or P3D or both? 

One of my test PC's has a 8700K (stock clock), I only saw 5% FPS improvement going from a 1080Ti to a Titan RTX (2000 series).  On my 9900K I saw more of an improvement around 19% when going from 1080Ti to Titan RTX (2000 series).  In this case, testing was done with P3D running 1440p res and 4XSSAA.  On my AMD 5950X and nv 3090, I got about 35% FPS improvement and able to run higher GPU intensive settings (like DR, more shadows, higher res clouds).

My advice, if you have 850E to spend and this is for P3D and you have at least a 1080Ti currently, then replace the CPU  with AMD 7000 series get one of the cheaper AMD motherboards and 32GB DDR5 6000Mhz RAM.  If this is for MSFS, then keep the CPU and go with 3080 GPU ... but be careful with eBay as there is a flood of GPUs that have been running 24/7 doing crypto mining.

EDIT: if you go with AMD, make sure you get good RAM ... performance difference can be as much as 19% just by RAM alone.  Intel seems to be less impacted by RAM speeds/latency.

Cheers, Rob.

Thank you for your Feedback Rob!

Honestly, I am not changing my mainboard nor my processor, however the PSU and GPU will be replaced. Especially eBay is crowded with suspicious persons who are trying to trick you to pay without any safety fees or directly send the money....however, the change between 10xx and 20xx is not that big, but especially the 3080-series are extremly powerful and in this case the 3080ti is a 3090 killer. After reviewing some benchmarks and tests it seems the 3080 will be the sweetspot.

[Hendrik Herryjanto]

On 10/1/2022 at 12:01 PM, Rob Ainscough said:

Arrived

Hi Rob,

Can you share with us your result with this new gen AMD. Is it worth the upgrade?

[Markus Burkhard]

On 10/7/2022 at 2:14 PM, Alexander Polcher said:

Will the Ti version anyhow be bottlenecked or slowed down by my i7 8700k and a 3080 would be sufficient, or would the Ti version bringt a noticeable performance boost?

Adding to what Rob has said, obviously your CPU/Mainboard will clearly bottleneck both GPUs, 3080 and Ti. The 3000 series GPUs are considerably more advanced than the CPU/RAM/SSD combo you have installed, that hardware is just not able to shovel data to those GPUs fast enough to unlock their full potential.
But you will of course still get a performance improvement, as Rob has pointed out well.

Having said that, I would recommend getting a 3080 Ti if you can find one at a good price, just to future-proof a bit better with those 2GB additional VRAM. Sure with your current other hardware a 3080 would be sufficient to boost your sim, but I reckon you will change your remaining hardware at SOME point in the not too distant future, so why not make your new GPU a bit more relevant for that time.

[Ray Proudfoot]

Rob, any chance you could give some info on how well P3Dv5 runs with your new hardware?

I have zero interest in MSFS. If you can it would be greatly appreciated.

[Wilhelm Zwirchmayr]

3 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Managed to sort out my Win 11 22H2 issues, a few OS updates later and DDU and manual driver install.

Also managed to secure an ASUS 4090 OC edition this morning due to arrive Oct 17th ... I know I said I wouldn't go nVidia, but the performance numbers of the 4090 just too good to pass up even on the raster side.  Hopefully my 1600 WATT PSU can handle it ... eventually I'll get a water block for it from EK.

 

 

 

Yes, the 4090 is a beast

I looked at a few test reports and a well-known youtuber from the German area "Der8auer" - no spelling mistake

It is best to set the TDB to a fixed value or only 70% of what is specified by the manufacturer

You may have max. 5% less FPS but you need less power than a 3080 TI and you are still extremely fast

[Ray Proudfoot]

Rob, many thanks for including P3D in your testing. That’s one monster of a setup.

[Ray Proudfoot]

13 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Ray, I tried going back to standard clouds (Volumetric clouds off in P3D), kept EA On, loaded up some REX cloud structures and I've forgotten just how much more real the old sprite layers look, nice cirrus too ... their only really drawback is when you look directly down on them they spin.  In addition the old school sprite clouds light up when flying thru them with DL enabled. 

I can’t have EA On. It darkens the VC of the Xtreme Prototypes Lear 25 too much and nothing I’ve tried lightens it sufficiently.

I’ll need to check my settings as I am happy with what I have for my daytime flights. I also found with EA On the sky never turned a deep blue and the bluish tinge of the ground from altitude looked like those old photos taken on negative film without a UV filter.

[Ray Proudfoot]

Hi Rob,

This site was recommended on AvSim as being a useful way of checking if your CPU and GPU were a good match for CPU or GPU intensive programs.

It suggests the i9-11900K and 3080Ti would be perfect for CPU intensive apps but for GPU intensive ones the 3080Ti would be the weak link.

https://pc-builds.com/bottleneck-calculator/result/10Y197/3840x2160/2/processor-intense-tasks

Thoughts?

[Ray Proudfoot]

3 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Did you try checking the Auto Exposure compensation?  That did the trick for me on those dark cockpits.

Yes, tried everything but the Lear25 VC is black so maybe it couldn't be improved. It's no great loss given I don't like the effects of EA and in any case it's quite hard on my old 1080Ti.

Incidentally, I've just bought Flightbeam KPDX. Spectacular scenery in that part of the world  - even in P3D.

[Sang Hyun Yoon]

I have both 7600x and 6800xt all AMD processors both run in P3D great. even with fslab with homecockpit

[Sang Hyun Yoon]

runs much smoother than the previous 12700kf I had 

 

 

[Wilhelm Zwirchmayr]

2 hours ago, Sang Hyun Yoon said:

runs much smoother than the previous 12700kf I had 

 

 

Interesting,

how much more fps do you have or is it just holding the fps better with your new cpu

I have a 5900x & RTS 3080, I think only changing the graphics card will bring an improvement

maybe if one of you has an RTX 4090, I would be interested in the performance on the WQH resolution

[Sang Hyun Yoon]

23 hours ago, Wilhelm Zwirchmayr said:

Interesting,

how much more fps do you have or is it just holding the fps better with your new cpu

I have a 5900x & RTS 3080, I think only changing the graphics card will bring an improvement

maybe if one of you has an RTX 4090, I would be interested in the performance on the WQH resolution

 

 

60fps locked and it's looking quite good.    

 

 

 

 

[Ray Proudfoot]

Thanks for posting those Rob. That’s definitely the hardest test in any sim. Even the fastest kit can’t run with all sliders right.

I’ll be avoiding the 4000 cards until those problems are resolved.

[Ray Proudfoot]

Ah, in that case I look forward to a consistent 30fps throughout the flight. 

[Wilhelm Zwirchmayr]

Hello, I did a test with my existing system (5900x 4.5 GHZ 3080 MSI water cooling 32 GB ram Monitor WQHD).

My Prepard3d is blocked at 30 FPS
Aircraft.: FS LABS A319
my graphics card is actually only used to a maximum of 50% at the airport in daylight and only about 30% when flying
When my FPS drop briefly, my CPU runs into the limit for a moment

the same at night (with fog) and that is more demanding for my graphics card, i have max. 80% utilization.
in flight, the graphics card is also loaded a little more, around 40-55%
The CPU is exactly the same as daily.

So a better CPU would bring more stability for me and if I set the FPS to unlimited, my system heats up and I get a lot more stutters.

With my current system, I have a maximum of 71 °C for the cpu and a maximum of 57 °C for the graphics card
the clock rate of the graphics card remains stable at 1970-2000 mhz

[Wilhelm Zwirchmayr]

18 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Just a quick update, installed the 4090 in my existing AMD 5950X based system and performance didn't really increase much ... my settings and add-ons are very CPU intensive.   With that said, I was able to increase P3D to 8XSSAA, set Dynamic Reflections to Ultra and with Dynamic Lights present there was 1 FPS drop and GPU load increased from 43% to 67% ... so clearly I'm still very CPU bound.

Rob.

Exactly, that's what I noticed with my system too.

Since I'm using an amd 5900x, only a cpu upgrade would help to keep the 33 fps.

[Alex Pugh]

18 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Just a quick update, installed the 4090 in my existing AMD 5950X based system and performance didn't really increase much ... my settings and add-ons are very CPU intensive.   With that said, I was able to increase P3D to 8XSSAA, set Dynamic Reflections to Ultra and with Dynamic Lights present there was 1 FPS drop and GPU load increased from 43% to 67% ... so clearly I'm still very CPU bound.

Rob.

Curious to see the uplift in MSFS, which seems to take better advantage of hardware.

[Ray Proudfoot]

Thanks for that Rob. The 4090 hardly improves fps at all. I’m eagerly awaiting the 7950X processor. That should give things a nice boost.

[Edgar Del Valle]

Thanks Rob for all the good info that you share. I am due for an upgrade. Current hardware is an I7 4790K and an Nvidia 1080Ti. Planning on waiting on AMD's new Ryzen 7000 3D

V-Cached CPU and either the new AMD Graphics card or the Nvidia 4090.

I am also considering the AMD 5800X3D but being an older platform I am not sure that is the right call.

Came to this thread thinking that you may have been experimenting with 5800X3D but it is not the case.

Anyways, I am following this thread. Thanks.

Ed

[Wilhelm Zwirchmayr]

11 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Hi Ed,

Bang for the buck is probably the AMD 7600 or Intel 13600K.

AMD just announced the new RNA 3 GPU cards today 7900XT and 7900XTX.  the 7900XTX is $999 available Dec 13th

7900XTX is 24GB VRAM and 355W and has better raster performance than the nv4090.  Don't know ray tracing numbers.

I wouldn't go with the 5800X3D, it's a great processor but doesn't support DDR5 and PCI 5.0 which is what you get with AMD 7600X.  I believe the 7000X3D is Q1 2023?  I think, not sure.

On to setting up the AMD 7950X + nv4090 testing now ... 

Cheers, Rob.

 

 

I also saw the presentation
and I find it very exciting.

I believe that the top model will be positioned between 4080 and 4090.
which is perfectly fine for the price and consumes a maximum of 100 watts less electricity

now nviidia has a big problem with the 3080 & 4080 or TI.

[Thiago Braun]

I believe that frame generation (without DLSS) will be an invaluable asset for simmers. On MSFS it has allowed me to achieve 60 fps+ @ 4K/Ultra using the Fenix A320 on major hubs with loads of AI traffic. Unfortunately no such option on P3D or XP12.

[Jose Rodrigues]

CPU Frequency peak at 5.94 Ghz

CPU Temp Peak 54.7 C

Wow...

[Alex Pugh]

$580 processor and a $1,600 video card gets you..... 34 fps. lol. Ready for the switch to UE5, if that's actually happening for V6. 

[David Gray]

Unreal engine is probably the version after the next for p3d. Even so I think the home user sim from Lockheed is a thing of the past. Feels like end of the road for p3d

[David Gray]

12 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

You gents need to be a little more negative … geez … anyway happy holidays!  
 

I do like UE5 but no one has done a flight simulator with it … it’s all about render distance (LOD). 

So I guess it’s end of road for MSFS and XP because they perform at very similar FPS per my prior results?  Not sure I follow or subscribe to that logic?

Anyway, the objective is to demonstrate the relative performance difference with hardware … it’s nothing to do with future platforms, value, etc.  I’ll happily take a 45% improvement and more timeframe consistency.

 

Cheers Rob.

me end of road comment wasn't meant to be negative in any way.  I just personally don't think we will see lockheed put any effort into selling home user sims anymore.  I'm not saying that's good or bad.  Either way my intent wasn't to derail and appreciate the scientific look you are giving us to the upgrade.  Can't wait to see what the new "x3d" AMD chip looks like when it's out.  

[Wilhelm Zwirchmayr]

5 hours ago, Alex Pugh said:

$580 processor and a $1,600 video card gets you..... 34 fps. lol. Ready for the switch to UE5, if that's actually happening for V6. 

I also read this message a few days ago.
once they start, it will take years, possibly version 7

[Wilhelm Zwirchmayr]

11 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

And here is some data for 7950X using same scenario (Apples to Apples) in P3D:

 

In this relatively extreme scenario of add-ons and graphics settings the:

AMD 5950X (nVidia 4090) was 23.4 FPS AVG 

AMD 7950X (nVidia 4090) was 34.0 FPS AVG

Performance improvement going from an AMD 5950X to AMD 7950X is 45.2%

As you can see from the data, overall throughput is improved with much less variance and fewer long spikes in FPS.  Overall, this is probably the biggest CPU improvement I've seen in a while going from prior gen CPU to current gen CPU.

For those interested in the data files they can be found here:

Raw RTSS logged data.

Converted and Charted RTSS data to Excel.

Here is the video of the test flight (give YouTube some time to resolve it to 4K resolution):

This weekend I hope to be able to run the same test in MSFS for another Apples to Apples compare between the 5950X and 7950X AMD CPUs.

Cheers, Rob.

 

thank you very much for doing these tests and has my full respect

it would be impossible to fly with this setting with my system ( 3080 and AMD 5900 )

could you repeat this test with different weather settings
e.g. fog, rain, night
I think that's where the 4090 starts to sweat and runs into the limit

I have the same problem with the 3080 at higher settings

[James Burgess]

Interesting read, thank you. 

I'm about to purchase a new rig after being away for a year or so (travel and time getting in the way).  It's not that money is not a consideration but I'd like to buy something that will last me a few years and allow for the ever increasing demand on hardware.  I like to fly the FS Labs A320 family in P3Dv5 and will toy with MSFS. I'd normally go for Intel chip and and an Nvidia card.  But hearing about the new AMD chip (7950x) and the newly released RX7900 cards and now reading this thread I'm undecided.  Can you offer me some guidance please?  Appreciate you time. 

[Daniel Jaffe]

1 hour ago, James Burgess said:

Interesting read, thank you. 

I'm about to purchase a new rig after being away for a year or so (travel and time getting in the way).  It's not that money is not a consideration but I'd like to buy something that will last me a few years and allow for the ever increasing demand on hardware.  I like to fly the FS Labs A320 family in P3Dv5 and will toy with MSFS. I'd normally go for Intel chip and and an Nvidia card.  But hearing about the new AMD chip (7950x) and the newly released RX7900 cards and now reading this thread I'm undecided.  Can you offer me some guidance please?  Appreciate you time. 

I have a 7950x and a 4090.  In another system, I did try the AMD video cards, but I ended going back to Nvidia as it seemed better supported overall in all three of the big sims.  

With the 7950x the 4090 my sim experience is solid and I have no regrets about my selections.  I rarely have any CTDs or other strange and unexplainable issues.  It also allows for higher detail settings without too much trouble. 

That said, I will say that P3Dv5 is still meh from a performance perspective.  It has niggling stuttering sometimes, shimmering, and it frankly shows its age.  Compared to my experience with MSFS and even XP, P3D still needs some work.  I'm not one to focus too much on fps.  Instead, I look for fluidity, consistency of performance, and good utilization of the capabilities of the processor and video card.  

You can't wrong with the 7950x and a 4090.

 

[James Burgess]

Thank you Daniel.  That sounds like a solid combination alright! Appreciate your help. 

[Ray Proudfoot]

Hi Rob. My PC builder - Chillblast - now has the i9-13900K and the 4090. I’m seriously considering this combo in a new build with the ASUS ROG Maximus Z790 Hero WiFi Motherboard and 32GB DDR5 Trident Z5 RGB 6400MHz Memory Kit (2 x 16GB Sticks).

Any thoughts on this? I’d prefer to stick to Intel and Nvidia. I chose the 13900K rather than the 13700K as it can be overclocked to 6Ghz. The 13700 and 13600 only go to 5.6 I believe.

[Ray Proudfoot]

Thanks Rob. I have to scale back several settings to get decent performance at some of the larger airports with lots of Ai. At CYVR today it was down in the mid 20s and killing Ai down to 40 didn’t help much. Weather was filthy too.

The 1080Ti is really showing its age now. The PC is being professionally built so I’ll check cooling options with them. PSU is 1000W Gold.

Concorde release must be getting close. Just 71 days to end of Q1.