@Ray Proudfoot i have almost the same config as you today, and considering an upgrade this year as well. Choosing the 13900k and 4090 for sure can't be wrong, however it comes with a cost.  I am considering the Intel 13700k or AMD 7000 series  and 4080 which can provide DLSS.

I believe this is enough to run well P3D and MSFS at 2K, unless you are targetting 4K ?

 

@klaus legrand, yes, those key components aren’t cheap but this is a hobby I love and once the PC is purchased the running costs are very low.

I do wonder why Intel introduced the i9-13900K when it runs so much hotter than the 13700 or 13600. Perhaps the extra eCores and ability to run at 6Ghz. Can P3D take advantage of those eCores? If not then perhaps the 13600 is the better choice. I need to research it.

The 4090 is overkill for P3D but it will last a very long time and should be adequate for anything LM produce beyond v6. I still have no desire to buy MSFS.

I’ll continue to run at 4K and because I limit fps to 30 that will reduce the demands on the CPU. Maybe the i9-13900K might be okay after all if it’s only going to run full tilt at heavy airports with lots of AIG Ai.

Certainly in terms of clouds and lighting the 4090 will cope with everything thrown at it especially on a single display. I imagine so will your proposed 4080.

Regarding your plans, yes, the 4080 with 16Gb will be fine. Rob is the expert on the AMD chips but I wouldn’t expect you to have any problems.

Rob,

I'm trying to keep an open mind about the AMD 7950X given you're so impressed with it. It's been more than 15 years since I had an AMD GPU and I've never had a AMD CPU.

Using the overclocking AiSuite does it play as nicely as Intel?

Looking at benchmark figures the Intel slightly outperforms the AMD as shown here. But in P3D would there be any obvious gain?

And this site says the AMD requires DDR5 memory whereas the Intel will accept DDR4. Will the increased speed of 5 show in P3D?

I selected this in the Chillblast config utility...

32GB DDR5 Trident Z5 RGB 6400MHz Memory Kit (2 x 16GB Sticks) - Silver

Rob, CL32 (32-39-39-102). Is that okay?

One question. You have even more GoFlight units than me. The 166s in particular need USB2 sockets. The Asus ROG board has them but they’re described as headers. I have a 10 port powered USB hub that most connect to. Is there anything special I need to ask Chillblast when they build it?

I bought the hub back in 2019 when my old one wasn’t compatible with W10. It looks to be a 10 port but I only have 8 GoFlight units plugged into it.

2 x 166,  2 x T8, 1 x P8, 1 LGT, 1 x MCP and 1 x EFIS. They’ve always been fine in my current mobo with the hub plugged into a USB2 port. All I need is 1 USB2 port on the new mobo.

It’s only the 166s that used to give me problems with the displays going off after a while but the way they’re plugged in now to the hub has been fine for over 3 years.

That Anker hub is no longer available. Grgghh. I’ll see how things go with the new PC.

On 1/19/2023 at 12:02 AM, Rob Ainscough said:

 ... I really hope they aren't waiting on Asobo to fix or provide functionality in MSFS before they release both versions (that could be a long long long wait).

We're not . (Although Asobo did fix a couple serious issues for us just a week ago - hats off to them for quick action).

On 1/31/2023 at 9:44 AM, Lefteris Kalamaras said:

We're not . (Although Asobo did fix a couple serious issues for us just a week ago - hats off to them for quick action).

that is amazing news!!! the most awaited piece of software making its way to MSFS.

thanks!

Can't imagine paying those scalper prices plus whatever markup an SI like Chillblast will charge. Yeesh. 

Rob, here's the screenshot but frustratingly he doesn't show the source.

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/631226-amd-7950x3d-in-msfs-48-faster-then-13900k/?do=findComment&comment=4929968

Rob, I appreciate little or no information was provided about that test. In any case I’m more interested in P3D performance which is where I’ll be relying on you.

My BenQ PD3200U monitor is capable of 30 Hz and higher frequencies. I’ll need to check the manual. So it’s possible I could set a refresh rate of 35 and with higher settings than now achieve that even at Heathrow with lots of Ai.

The other thing I’d like to do is maximise the speed of core 0 at the expense of the other cores. The first one remains the most important for v5 and presumably the forthcoming v6. I’m unsure of how to do that which is why I rely on AI Suite but it doesn’t provide that feature.

Rob, I’ve read a huge amount about AM and I did avoid core 0 when 5.3 first came out. But more reading convinced me it was okay to use it. Why not when it’s faster than the other cores? The i7-8086K is ideal for turbo mode on that core.

Not spoken to Pete for a couple of months. He doesn’t post much on the forums either. Use your charm to convince him he needs a new system. 
No, it’s not VRR capable but does have other refresh rates available I’m sure.

Guru3D have published a full review of the 7950X3D. Scrolling towards the last few pages showing various game performance a few are slightly faster with the AMD, a few are faster with the i9-13900K.

https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-ryzen-9-7950x3d-processor-review,1.html

The primary benefit of the AMD seems to be far cooler running.

26 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

absolutely do NOT enable SMT for games. 

I have no idea what that means. The equivalent of Intel’s Hyperthreading?

With so many cores I wouldn’t have thought it necessary given P3D can’t use more than 6 or so.

I see you use a lower voltage. How did you determine that?

Amazing review Rob, simply outstanding job you do comparing the CPUs. Thank you.

Reading this review:

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-9-7950x3d-cpu-review/6

shows us massive increase in MSFS performance, if I quote them:

Quote

The 7950X3D’s performance in Microsoft Flight Simulator 2021 is almost unbelievable — the X3D chip is 53% faster than its vanilla counterpart, the 7950X...

... Microsoft Flight Simulator 2021 obviously benefits tremendously from L3 cache

Do you agree with them recommending -X3D version for us using P3D5 and more often even MSFS2020?

Thank you for your thoughts about the Tomshardware review.

Cheers,

Thoughts from Linus here on the 7950X3D. Waiting with bated breath for Rob's testing!

 

Just for fun

 

I'll add to the topic. 

Rob,

Comparing the cache on the i9-13900KS to the 7950XD3 the Intel has 512Mb more L1, same L2 and 92Mb less L3.

Reading this article L1 would appear to be the fastest and most important. So given that, shouldn’t the Intel be the better choice?

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/what-is-cpu-cache/

This is where I got my CPU info from. Presumably it’s accurate.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/5160vs5234/Intel-i9-13900KS-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-7950X3D

I assume this means that the 36MB L3 cache in the Intel CPU is frequently being overwhelmed by data requests from the processor cores, and the fallback is the relatively slow system RAM.

@Ray Proudfoot

Just make sure the GPU fits in that box of yours, it's pretty tight. Check the max  GPU length the meshify will accept.

I have a 6900 and it can barely squeeze in.

7 minutes ago, M_i_k_e_V_o_g said:

@Ray Proudfoot

Just make sure the GPU fits in that box of yours, it's pretty tight. Check the max  GPU length the meshify will accept.

I have a 6900 and it can barely squeeze in.

this is the reason I went with the Founders Edition in my build.  I've used the same case for a few builds now.  Corsair 570X

1 hour ago, M_i_k_e_V_o_g said:

@Ray Proudfoot

Just make sure the GPU fits in that box of yours, it's pretty tight. Check the max  GPU length the meshify will accept.

I have a 6900 and it can barely squeeze in.

It’s being professionally built. If there are any sizing problems Chillblast will tell me and recommend alternatives.

58 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Wrong kit, you want this kit: https://www.amazon.com/G-Skill-Trident-288-Pin-CL36-36-36-96-F5-6000J3636F16GX2-TZ5NR/dp/B0BF6ZQ8MY/ref=pd_aw_lpo_1?pd_rd_w=DQLBm&content-id=amzn1.sym.777293c2-6c61-4f2f-b942-279957855194&pf_rd_p=777293c2-6c61-4f2f-b942-279957855194&pf_rd_r=C7BSARXS9AA2XWNXCJ48&pd_rd_wg=JC2Sl&pd_rd_r=fead7468-2455-4013-8679-e6f6d691e1e7&pd_rd_i=B0BF6ZQ8MY&psc=1

Make sure CL30 not 36 … link is odd?

1TB HDD?  Not sure point of that, it’ll just slow everything down as OS waits for it … if you need more space just get 2TB m.2 rather than 500GB.

PSU I’d recommend 1200watt or very high quality 1000watt.

Case is too small for 4090 … also look for a case with GPU support bracket.  My ASUS 4090 came with a support rod.

Cheers, Rob

GSkill Trident 6000. 2*16Gb CL30. Roger that.

I’ve always had a HDD for downloads and the like. Are you really saying it will affect overall performance? Never heard that before.

Not sure a 1200w is available. I’ve chosen a 1000w Gold.

I’ll discuss case options with Chillblast. I don’t have space for full tower. It has to be mid tower. Roger the support bracket.

1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I’ve always had a HDD for downloads and the like. Are you really saying it will affect overall performance? Never heard that before.

It does slow down the system, yes. Not in gaming performance or the like, but the operating system pauses in certain tasks as it waits for the HDD to respond. And you'd want that thing to go to sleep whenever it can since it needs plenty of power and produces equally lots of heat.

Spinning HDDs only make sense these days if you need gigantic storage sizes. For 1 TB you'd get a SATA 2.5 inch SSD drive optimised for storage, such as the Samsung 870 QVO drives, perfect for file storage. I have plenty of those in my systems and find them to be excellent value (storage capacity and speed) for money.

Markus and Rob. You’ve convinced me. I suppose it’s a carryover from the days when SSDs were expensive so HDDs provided a cheap way for extra storage.

I’ll swap it for a modest Samsung SSD.

Roger all that Rob. I did some research this morning about the size of the 4900. It varies by manufacturer. The Nvidia FE is the shortest and can be accommodated in the Fractal Meshify 2 case.

On 9.4.2023 at 19:43, Ray Proudfoot said:

In den 3,5 Jahren, in denen ich meinen vorhandenen PC hatte, musste ich mich nie damit befassen. Baue und vergesse für mich.

Irgendwann müssen Grafikkartenhersteller die Größe dieser Karten überdenken. Sie werden lächerlich.

considering how small the map gets when you add a water block.

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm Zwirchmayr said:

considering how small the map gets when you add a water block.

I’m not sure which of my posts you’re referring to as it’s been translated into German.

The Noctua NH-U14S air cooler in my PC has been doing a sterling job for three years now, but then I am not running space age stuff like Rob does

27 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

WARNING: AMD CPU could melt ... fortunately ASUS have released a couple of BIOS/EFI to fix the SoC issue.  I haven't suffered any issues on my two AMD 7 series CPUs but I have updated my BIOS/EFI just in case.

So if anyone is getting an AMD, make sure you get latest BIOS/EFI from the motherboard vendor.

Cheers, Rob.

I think it is a mandatory update at least for the ASUS boards. It looks like the ASUS took the voltages again to the maximum without a proper reason. 

I think Asus is still very good and realible vendor. I heard other vendors has also similar overvoltage issue. Generally speaking we can see so many issues with different products recently like Nvidia 4090 connector melt down and etc. I think something with QA, QC procedures not going well as before. Anyway I ordered mine 7950x3d with Asus X670E-E motherboard today lol.

On 5/23/2023 at 11:45 PM, Rob Ainscough said:

I'm not so sure any more ... after some of the decisions ASUS made recently with SoC issue and voiding warranties and just overall lack of quality control and support.

Shame, ASUS used to be top on my Motherboard list ... I spent $1000 for my ASUS Motherboard, much of that expense is support and quality ... and I got neither.  They also made some bad design decisions in regards to PCIE-16 slot 1 where a OLED panel blocks my ability to use a full coverage water block on the GPU.

If you believe Jay, Steve, Linus and other reviewers they hammered ASUS for their poor customer support/response to major issues.  I think Jay even dropped ASUS as a sponsor.

I wish EVGA produced AM5 motherboards, I would buy one in a heartbeat.

I think people making too much drama. I finished to build my new system a few days ago and very happy so far. 7950x3d is a beast, very efficient and running cool. I updated bios to the latest one, vsoc voltage limitation is implemented. Corsair ram expo profile was not working by default but after a few adjustments running perfect @6000 MHz.

I’ve discussed motherboards with Rob privately but it may be helpful to discuss them here so others can chip in. He’s recommended the X670E chipset for the X7950X3D CPU and given his disappointment with Asus I’m wondering what the best alternatives are. Rob recommends MSI and Gigabyte but my PC builder doesn’t have the Gigabyte Aorus Master.

Ive asked them to list the X670E boards they can supply. Some of the prices are crazy. Hopefully Chillblast will have some in the 500-600 GBP range.

Do I need more than one PCIe Gen 5 slot? Given the 4090 works fine in a Gen 4 slot is this a possible savings option? What else can benefit from Gen 5? 

Thanks for any advice.

A bit more digging reveals M2 SSDs using NVMe can take advantage of PCI Gen 5. Faster read and write speeds. Future proofing! 

4 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I’ve discussed motherboards with Rob privately but it may be helpful to discuss them here so others can chip in. He’s recommended the X670E chipset for the X7950X3D CPU and given his disappointment with Asus I’m wondering what the best alternatives are. Rob recommends MSI and Gigabyte but my PC builder doesn’t have the Gigabyte Aorus Master.

Ive asked them to list the X670E boards they can supply. Some of the prices are crazy. Hopefully Chillblast will have some in the 500-600 GBP range.

Do I need more than one PCIe Gen 5 slot? Given the 4090 works fine in a Gen 4 slot is this a possible savings option? What else can benefit from Gen 5? 

Thanks for any advice.

Although Rob is disappointed with ASUS, I am very happy with it. 

7950X3D is awesome cpu and I can highly recommend it. 

I am not sure you need more than one PCIe Gen5. Although my motherboard have two, I am not using any at the moment ( I mean Gen 5 capabilities) 

Thanks Gregory. Given how much I’ll be spending on this PC I would like the latest of everything. Chillblast is a reputable company so I wonder why they have no mobos with the X670E chipset.

They offer just five and all with the B650 or B650E chipset. Are the differences significant?

This article covers the differences.

https://www.electronicshub.org/amd-x670e-vs-b650e/#:~:text=AMD designed both X670E and,comes with 128GB DIMM RAM.

Further down it says “Both of these are the latest chipsets from AMD. While the X670E is the most advanced, it is ideal for those who need PCIe 5.0 support for high-end graphics cards.”

You don’t get more advanced than the 4090 but reading this it can’t take advantage of PCIe 5.0.

“Will an RTX 4090 run fine on a PCIe 5.0 x8 slot? Yes but it will run at half the bandwidth of PCIe 5.0 x8. This is not a problem since 4090 doesn't utilize the full bandwidth anyway. In fact, 4090 doesn't work with Gen 5 directly.”

Confused? I am. 

41 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

This article covers the differences.

https://www.electronicshub.org/amd-x670e-vs-b650e/#:~:text=AMD designed both X670E and,comes with 128GB DIMM RAM.

Further down it says “Both of these are the latest chipsets from AMD. While the X670E is the most advanced, it is ideal for those who need PCIe 5.0 support for high-end graphics cards.”

You don’t get more advanced than the 4090 but reading this it can’t take advantage of PCIe 5.0.

“Will an RTX 4090 run fine on a PCIe 5.0 x8 slot? Yes but it will run at half the bandwidth of PCIe 5.0 x8. This is not a problem since 4090 doesn't utilize the full bandwidth anyway. In fact, 4090 doesn't work with Gen 5 directly.”

Confused? I am. 

The 4090 is not a gen 5 card, in a 5.0 x8 slot it will perform like a 4.0 x8 card or a 3.0 x16 card.

Rob, your advice is appreciated but until Chillblast can supply an x670e mobo I can’t proceed.

I’ve always had two drives. One for the OS, the other for the sim of my choice. You’re now saying I have to put all my eggs in one basket. How is that progress? Surely modern mobos can support two M.2 drives. Otherwise what’s the point of all these connections we pay a fortune for?

5 minutes ago, Gregory Verba said:

The 4090 is not a gen 5 card, in a 5.0 x8 slot it will perform like a 4.0 x8 card or a 3.0 x16 card.

So when will graphics cards catch up? The 5090? 

Rob, I appreciate the explanation but I’m not really any wiser. In layman’s terms will loading times suffer if I have 2 M.2 drives installed instead of 1? If so, by how much? Is it measurable?

The problem is if Chillblast have no X670E mobos then the AMD CPU is not an option. I would need to switch to Intel i9-13900K which uses the Socket 1700. Any further CPUs like gen 14 would not be compatible. It’s the end of the line.

But I have never upgraded any PC in a long time. I stick with what I bought and then sell it when I’m ready to upgrade. I’ve had my current one just short of 5 years.

But at the rate improvements are coming that could be 6-7 years for me and I may not feel inclined to go through this process again. Just like our mutual friend. 

Prepare yourself for advice on the Intel CPU. 

8 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Can't help you with what Chillblast do or do not have, seems odd that a pc builder/reseller would only offer one CPU manufacturer ... seems a little limiting in market scope?

They offer AMD but with the older B650E. It’s curious why they don’t offer the X670E. Given they’re our equivalent to Jetline maybe they know something I don’t. I’ll call them today and enquire.

Done some more digging this morning. Here’s a comparison between the B650E and X670e chipsets.

https://www.electronicshub.org/amd-x670e-vs-b650e/

The dilemma I have is that Chillblast offer just five AMD motherboards and four of them are Asus which Rob doesn’t like. But is it because of the BIOS problems or something physical on all their boards? The physical issue is difficult to resolve, the BIOS somewhat easier.

The remaining board is a Gigabyte which only supports PCIe v4, not 5. So if I want 5 (which I do) then it has to be an Asus B650e board.

LATER: I’ve just got off the phone with Chillblast and on checking their database they do have a x670 MSI PRO X670-P WIFI. Note it’s not the x670e.

They're in the process of updating the site so hopefully this will become visible for customer selection. What do you think of that one Rob? Only 1 PCIe v5 slot but that’s fine for the 4Gb M.2 NVMe SSD with the 4090 going into the PCIe v4 slot.

Anyone else feel free to chip in. 

Chillblast have replied. They have just one E670e chipset mobo. The MSI is E670.

https://rog.asus.com/uk/motherboards/rog-crosshair/rog-crosshair-x670e-hero-model/

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/PRO-X670-P-WIFI

The Asus would be my preferred choice.

Thanks Rob, that’s very helpful info. I’m mentally exhausted from trying to work out how best to proceed. It seems crazy that mobo manufacturers are making PCIe v5 slots for GPUs that don’t yet exist. I believe there is one Chinese PCIe v5 GPU but it’s not taking the world by storm.

Will the 5000 series from Nvidia have that capability and if so what will the prices and speed be like compared to the 4090. Who knows!

What would be more useful to me is two M.2 NVMe SSDs both on PCIe v5 slots. Is that feasible? I know what you’ve said about just using one but old habits are hard to break.

Regarding overclocking I would wait and judge performance and whether it was necessary. But ordering a water cooler seems sensible so I cover all eventualities. Any particular make / model? Corsair H150 perhaps?

Okay Rob, you’ve convinced me. But if having more than one is so detrimental to speed why do mobo builders add them?

I’ll Google “Best water coolers”. My average room temp is around 70F (no air-cond) and in winter it’s lower. I tend not to fly in warm sunny weather.

Going for the X670E is future-proofing for a PCI v5 GPU. I’d kick myself if their performance was far better than v4. The mobo is the heart of everything and the most difficult to replace.