Second taught about pirates.

[Jacob Tang]

My question to the developer is, yes it is not right to pirate however, does pirating cause major damages to your business? Although you can count the number of copies as lost revenue , but in reality what percentage of those pirates will actually buy the software if crack is not available ? It seems that many or most flight sim pirates never buy any add on at all , so it's false to consider that as "lost revenue". I'm just saying, i have no actual stats to prove my point of view , just from past experience. What do you think ?

[Patrick Kazmierczak]

I'm not agreeing with your point but there was a study done at one point, I think it may have even been geared toward flight sim addons, that showed that piracy doesn't have that much of an effect because as you said they wouldn't have bought it anyways. I'm not defending pirates here but neither am I defending FSL, DRM is one thing, intentionally installing known malware is beyond seedy, its flat out wrong.

[Peter Fabian]

Without divulging too much, loss of sales to piracy is not too high, but combined with increased support load, high enough it's worth some countermeasures... Not putting malware into your customers computers though.

[Ray Proudfoot]

A suggestion. Stop calling them pirates because it gives the impression they are similar to Johnny Depp - a popular character in the Pirates of the Caribbean films.

Call them what they are. Thieves who steal other people’s work because of some sense of self-entitlement. They have no morals. They are dishonest. They are the lowest form of life. They disgust me.

[Jacob Tang]

35 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

A suggestion. Stop calling them pirates because it gives the impression they are similar to Johnny Depp - a popular character in the Pirates of the Caribbean films.

Call them what they are. Thieves who steal other people’s work because of some sense of self-entitlement. They have no morals. They are dishonest. They are the lowest form of life. They disgust me.

The very definition of a pirate is "use or reproduce (another's work) for profit without permission, usually in contravention of patent or copyright." . Your view on what pirate means is ridiculous and that's your own view please don't suggest others to call it something else.

Furthermore, i'm sure that everyone , especially your senior have have pirated something in your life haven't you ? Even the smallest item. Hence , you're calling yourself " no morals, dishonest and lowest form of life " since you did not define a scale in your argument. 

Tell me if my argument is not correct if you can. 

[Jacob Tang]

On 2/20/2018 at 10:51 PM, Patrick Kazmierczak said:

I'm not agreeing with your point but there was a study done at one point, I think it may have even been geared toward flight sim addons, that showed that piracy doesn't have that much of an effect because as you said they wouldn't have bought it anyways. I'm not defending pirates here but neither am I defending FSL, DRM is one thing, intentionally installing known malware is beyond seedy, its flat out wrong.

Exactly, they know this fact , but yet they have made the active decision of introducing DRM into your installers. No code is 100% perfect,  and technically everyone of us is put under a hypothetical small risk that could steal your entire identity. I have all my banking done on chrome, gaining password means that they have the power to make me homeless. Is that right ? 

[Ray Proudfoot]

25 minutes ago, Jacob Tang said:

The very definition of a pirate is "use or reproduce (another's work) for profit without permission, usually in contravention of patent or copyright." . Your view on what pirate means is ridiculous and that's your own view please don't suggest others to call it something else.

Furthermore, i'm sure that everyone , especially your senior have have pirated something in your life haven't you ? Even the smallest item. Hence , you're calling yourself " no morals, dishonest and lowest form of life " since you did not define a scale in your argument. 

Tell me if my argument is not correct if you can. 

The definition of a thief is "a person who steals another person's property, especially by stealth and without using force or threat of violence." I stand by my accusation.

I have never pirated any software and never would.

[Robert Ruprecht]

32 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

The definition of a thief is "a person who steals another person's property, especially by stealth and without using force or threat of violence." I stand by my accusation.

I have never pirated any software and never would.

All pirates are thieves.

[John Barnes]

Lets hold it together guys.

[Ray Proudfoot]

2 minutes ago, John Barnes said:

Lets hold it together guys.

I've said all I'm going to in this discussion anyway John.

[Jacob Tang]

17 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

The definition of a thief is "a person who steals another person's property, especially by stealth and without using force or threat of violence." I stand by my accusation.

I have never pirated any software and never would.

Software pirating is just one form of pirating.  Since you did not state your scope you meant all forms of pirating.

We have all stoles things before haven't we, that by definition makes us thieves and pirates at some point of our lives. Therefore stating that all thieves are lowest forms of life is just ridicules. 

And I'm not defending software pirates here but fslabs cannot justify their action of installing DRM into our computers . Now no software is perfect , and having a DRM tool temporary in my computer technically opens a backdoor to expose all my chrome data. Now i have all by banking done on chrome ,  hence is it worth it that fslabs wanna catch a few thieves and put many of us at a small danger, really small danger of losing all our money. Fslabs are not stupid people,  they know what they are doing , the made a conscious decision to risk all our data to catch a few pirates, which have little impact on their business. This is not the first time they have done this , back then when he made the PMDG MD-11 delete your sim's texture if a pirate serial is detected. However there are many complains of legit customers having their sim texture folder deleted, who says the same can't happen here ? If it happens , all your data is sent UNENCRYPTED  to their server. Anyone with a packet sniffer can expose these packets sent and obtain all your important data. Anyone .

What they did is pure stupid and suicidal for their business.  I myself is a software engineer, and it's should be clear you don't install malware it a customer's computer no matter what's the reason is, and telling customers to disable their anti-virus when installing your software. 

[Søren Dissing]

1 hour ago, Jacob Tang said:

...Now i have all by banking done on chrome , ...

As a software engineer you should have no problems ensuring that Chrome never retains any info from your online baking activities. Common sense.

[Ray Proudfoot]

@Jacob Tang, I think you’ve made your views clear enough. FSL withdrew the relevant software very quickly and let’s not forget it would only have been executed on installs with a known invalid code. But I agree that does not excuse the action.

I’m still waiting to hear condemnation and outrage against the criminals who steal honest people’s work. Strangely silent here on that. 

[Ray Proudfoot]

You don't appear to have any sympathy for FSL who were simply trying to protect their product. And they have repented which counts for an awful lot in my book. It is only malware if it's executed and it's only executed if you have a registration key that is suspect.

The definition of malware is any program or file that is harmful to a computer user. For those who have a valid registration key the software would not run so by definition it only becomes malware for those who have downloaded from a criminal site

I'll say it again. I would happily load that 'malware' if I bought any future offering from FSL as it would not run on my PC.

EDIT Sorry Ray. Removed his post and he can not reply to you so have also removed his quote.

Rgds

JB

[Patrick Kazmierczak]

The one issue that I don't see being brought up here is the legality of it. Even if I did pirate it does that give FSL the right to dump my private information? To access something that would require a government agency to get a warrant? Just because I downloaded a pirated copy, (and I agree that it's reprehensible but that's not my point here), does not give FSL the clearance to hack my personal information. What they did is admitted to hacking, stealing personal information and borderline identity theft by then using that information to log onto other sites. I understand their intentions but as the old saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

[Jacob Tang]

As i said we software engineers do not put malware into a customer's computer at any cost. My point is we software engineers know what could go wrong as we are humans , no one ever writes the perfect code. Hence we do not put malware into a customer's computer for any reason.

Furthermore , this is considered vigilantism, and the action of installing malware into a computer to extract anyone's as a act of vigilante is illegal in the court of law. Now a crime is committed, that is against EU law, both parities should be punished, according to the court of law.

There is a line we have to draw here , that is the link between mistake and being pure stupid. Remember , Fslabs should have came out clean when a user pointed out that test.exe is malware back in late 2017 , however fslabs just told that customer to turn off anti virus. They had their chance.

[Jacob Tang]

2 minutes ago, Patrick Kazmierczak said:

The one issue that I don't see being brought up here is the legality of it. Even if I did pirate it does that give FSL the right to dump my private information? To access something that would require a government agency to get a warrant? Just because I downloaded a pirated copy, (and I agree that it's reprehensible but that's not my point here), does not give FSL the clearance to hack my personal information. What they did is admitted to hacking, stealing personal information and borderline identity theft by then using that information to log onto other sites. I understand their intentions but as the old saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
 

Yup, Fslabs broke the law by stealing the info of the pirate , and all those people whom downloaded the pirated copy.

[Jacob Tang]

4 minutes ago, Patrick Kazmierczak said:

The one issue that I don't see being brought up here is the legality of it. Even if I did pirate it does that give FSL the right to dump my private information? To access something that would require a government agency to get a warrant? Just because I downloaded a pirated copy, (and I agree that it's reprehensible but that's not my point here), does not give FSL the clearance to hack my personal information. What they did is admitted to hacking, stealing personal information and borderline identity theft by then using that information to log onto other sites. I understand their intentions but as the old saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
 

In USA its under "Computer Fraud and Abuse Act"

[Jacob Tang]

1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

You don't appear to have any sympathy for FSL who were simply trying to protect their product. And they have repented which counts for an awful lot in my book. It is only malware if it's executed and it's only executed if you have a registration key that is suspect.

The definition of malware is any program or file that is harmful to a computer user. For those who have a valid registration key the software would not run so by definition it only becomes malware for those who have downloaded from a criminal site

I'll say it again. I would happily load that 'malware' if I bought any future offering from FSL as it would not run on my PC.

EDIT Sorry Ray. Removed his post and he can not reply to you so have also removed his quote.

Rgds

JB

Plus there is no way that one can justify installing such a tool into someone's computer. Fslabs tried to justify it's actions by explaining that it will only activate for pirated copies, that is not acceptable . The best thing they should have done is a apology from the start but instead they tried to justify their actions then apologize.

[Roman Heriban]

25 minutes ago, Jacob Tang said:

Yup, Fslabs broke the law by stealing the info of the pirate , and all those people whom downloaded the pirated copy.

When one person makes false accusations against or statements about another and “publishes” those statements (by transmitting them to a third party by written word or word of mouth), and those statements damage the reputation, character or integrity of that person, the target of the statements may recover damages from the person who uttered the false statements. Such statements are called defamation.

FSLabs team, please protect decent people from reading these unethical posts. Do not allow anyone to harm your goodwill, on your own forum. Consequently, consider legal steps against these false accusations.

[Ray Proudfoot]

@Jacob Tang, time to call it a day I think. This is one horse you have flogged to death. We get your point.

[Jacob Tang]

While I'll still most likely buy their products. However none of my accusations are false , and that people should know the severity of such actions and how it could harm you. My purpose is to provide all the evidence here that serve as a tool for you and others to make your own decision. 

[Roman Heriban]

1 hour ago, Jacob Tang said:

However none of my accusations are false

Are you a lawyer or a judge? Do you have all the information? Be sure that where you see just A, there is B and C. I discussed the case with a lawyer who works for an international IT company. This is much more complicated than you can imagine. And I can tell you that your accusations very probably ARE false. Are you prepared to bear legal consequences, if you are wrong?

[Milan Assuied]

23 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

The definition of a thief is "a person who steals another person's property, especially by stealth and without using force or threat of violence." I stand by my accusation.

I have never pirated any software and never would.

So you never took advantage of winzip or winrare eternal trial periods ?

I would personally say that mass murders are a lowest form of life than a pirate but I guess anyone has his own scale of values.

[John Barnes]

I will lock this post if it turns into an argument.

 

[Mike Campbell]

This is growing to be very irritating and tedious. The constant barrage from those intent on maligning FSLabs smacks of protesting too much and, I suspect, hints strongly of hidden agendas designed to undermine FSLabs excellent reputation.

I have accepted FSLabs explanation and apology although, strictly speaking, the latter was not really necessary as I am fully supportive of any actions that identify and STOP those miscreants who continue to use their criminal activities for selfish gain.

Any fair-minded person will appreciate that serious errors of judgement may have occurred, but can understand why such methods were implemented and, it seems, have succeeded. 

Has anyone, other than those targeted, suffered? No! That alone underlines the effectiveness of the software used to catch those responsible for stealing and, presumably, passing on FSLabs unique products. Ironically certain laws, while supposedly put in place with the intent of protecting everyone, in fact are protecting the perpetrators of such crimes while ignoring the rights of their victims.

If nothing else, this unfortunate episode, and the resultant furore, demonstrates how easily we can be exposed to attack and having the finger of accusation pointed in your direction should you dare to protect your intellectual property by fighting back.

Nothing of further usefulness can arise by allowing the continued appearance of such defamatory and unconstructive posts and I would support their removal as they contribute nothing that is new to the discussion. 

It is now time to move on and we should rally behind FSLabs by affirming our loyalty and ongoing support for all their endeavours as they continue to create exemplary products for the discerning flight sim community.

Mike

[Jacob Tang]

14 hours ago, Roman Heriban said:

Are you a lawyer or a judge? Do you have all the information? Be sure that where you see just A, there is B and C. I discussed the case with a lawyer who works for an international IT company. This is much more complicated than you can imagine. And I can tell you that your accusations very probably ARE false. Are you prepared to bear legal consequences, if you are wrong?

Yes. Please state which of my accusations above are false so i can correct those. 

[John Barnes]

I think this thread has run its course. Lets knock the too and fro arguments on the head please. I am beginning to feel like the referee stood between Rocky and Apollo.

[George Walker]

The thieves are flightsimlabs.  I am 100% against piracy, but what they did was, in my opinion, much much worse.  One illegal act does not justify another illegal act.  This is much worse than what flightsimlabs is making it out to be.  They have every right to try to protect their property, and to try to catch those that might pirate said property, but what they don't have a right to do, is purposely install a malware onto my computer that could later be used for criminals to obtain private information.  I have uninstalled this product from my computer, although I'm sure the malware is still on there, and requested a full refund.  The fact that any of you can defend the actions of this company is just unthinkable.  They have lost all trust within most of the flightsim community and should be ashamed of what they have done.  A simple apology of "oops we  screwed up, sorry"  just doesn't cut it. 

[Abhishek Banerjee]

I am really sorry to say DRM concept is totally  illegal act. I really afraid to use it. Few moths  back I purchased FSUIPC from simmarket and after that my credit card number was licked. I closed my card immediately,   so now can you give any guarantee that you are tracing my google chrome and collect all my personal data. I think its totally illegal.   I open a ticket for refund also 24hrs over till now not getting any reply. 

[Ray Proudfoot]

15 minutes ago, Abhishek Banerjee said:

I am really sorry to say DRM concept is totally  illegal act. I really afraid to use it. Few moths  back I purchased FSUIPC from simmarket and after that my credit card number was licked. I closed my card immediately,   so now can you give any guarantee that you are tracing my google chrome and collect all my personal data. I think its totally illegal.   I open a ticket for refund also 24hrs over till now not getting any reply. 

The 'malware' software would only be initiated if you had the suspect product key. If you haven't because you legitimately purchased the product nothing has been taken from your PC. I'm not defending the action - just pointing out facts. Your Google Chrome account was NOT compromised.

There is an new installer available without the offending software. Why not just uninstall, and reinstall with the new installer? Would any other A320 be as good as this one?

[George Walker]

If you uninstall the product, does it also uninstall the malware?  I'm not sure it works that way.  I hope it does, because I uninstalled this product and will never install it again.  It's not worth the risk.

[Abhishek Banerjee]

@Ray Proudfoot according his point, if we use  legit addons then no need to worry about it. But then why 'malware' software concept will come through legit copy!

[Ray Proudfoot]

2 minutes ago, Abhishek Banerjee said:

@Ray Proudfoot according his point, if we use  legit addons then no need to worry about it. But then why 'malware' software concept will come through legit copy!

Don't understand your point, sorry. Read Lefteris's pinned post at the top of the main forum. That should explain everything.

[John Barnes]

Like i said a number of posts back. This thread has run its course.