UK Airways / Concorde routings

[Will Fibich]

I've seen lately that the UK has gotten rid of a lot of the airways- thus we've seen a lot of the typical Concorde waypoints go out with it as well as the non-RNAV arrivals into Heathrow.

 

What new routings have you guys (FSL testers, or anyone flying the Concorde nowadays) been using in the last few weeks? Surely will be interesting taking the thing online. 

[Andrew Wilson]

Hi Will,

Yes we’ve been discussing our new routes with VATUK and updated our planning system to handle these. Providing a customer has AIRAC Cycle 2303 or later installed, the system will generate up-to-date routes. These are:

CPT Q63 CONKO N5124W00350 LESLU

5124N00350W should be referred to as ‘The Accel Point’.

Inbounds off Sierra November:

LULOX DCT TACQI DCT BAPHU DCT OCTIZ DCT SIRIC

The planning system handles the decel points for different season (for both LHR and JFK). In Winter the boom carpet propagates further forward so the routings took this into consideration.

[Craig Baillie]

I shall forever call 5124…UPGAS!

 

But never programme UPGAS as they moved it from the Bristol channel to somewhere over the North Sea . Should have been left alone as a point of interest IMO !

[Andrew Wilson]

It was only towards the end it was called UPGAS, late 90's or even early 2000? For most of the years Concorde was flying, it was simply ACCEL PT. 

So it's quite nice to have that back on our plans now 

 

[John Price]

Lovely stuff.

I was going to ask the same as Will actually so glad suitable arrangements have been made 

BTW Why did they input points on the SID into the INS? (i.e. LON and WOD). I noticed that on the ITVV video but they wouldn’t use the INS to fly the SID, would they?

[Andrew Wilson]

Woodley was Waypoint 1 on the INS - useful to have a distance readout for WOD on the HSI as they needed to cross WOD at or above 4000ft.

Not an easy task on a hot summers day with a full load, even with a 2% increase in power at LON 7d. 

 

[John Price]

Ahh, I see, clever. 

[Craig Baillie]

51 minutes ago, Andrew Wilson said:

Woodley was Waypoint 1 on the INS - useful to have a distance readout for WOD on the HSI as they needed to cross WOD at or above 4000ft.

Not an easy task on a hot summers day with a full load, even with a 2% increase in power at LON 7d. 

 

It was probably done to make our job easier; easier to say route direct UPGAS.

When they stopped the waypoint became meaningless so after a few years they removed it.

[Ugnius Čičiurėnas]

5 hours ago, Andrew Wilson said:

It was only towards the end it was called UPGAS, late 90's or even early 2000? For most of the years Concorde was flying, it was simply ACCEL PT. 

So it's quite nice to have that back on our plans now 

 

Hey, maybe there is a place where to see all concorde flight routes?

[Vimal Anandharaman]

 

11 hours ago, Andrew Wilson said:

It was only towards the end it was called UPGAS, late 90's or even early 2000? For most of the years Concorde was flying, it was simply ACCEL PT. 

So it's quite nice to have that back on our plans now 

 

Would love to see more of the planning software and the kinds of document it generates : D 

Are there any particular routes that you find unique/challenging? Assume it would be stuff like high altitude departures. 

Edit: What does O/R and N/R under the ATA column mean?

[Andrew Wilson]

I think the supersonic loops are probably the most challenging - especially the North Sea loop they flew out of LHR. Departures are significantly faster - the routes are tight with smaller leg segments, so you're always thinking 50 miles ahead. And then there's the supersonic loops themselves that require some knowledge to navigate properly. 

People might think these shorter flights are a good option to familiarise yourself with the aircraft. The opposite should be considered with Concorde - go for a London Barbados to start with. It will give you plenty of time to work through the procedures. 

 

[John Price]

Yes, for my first flight I was going to do some circuit training at Shannon or Prestwick but I think it will be much more manageable just to do ordinary line flights and head down to TBPB the first few times. Even the real pilots on their first circuit apparently struggled to level off at circuit height!

[Trevor Hannant]

After seeing Concorde fly past the hotel whilst in Barbados (and returning after a failed attempt to climb above a Hurricane!), it's top of my list for "initiation" flights!

[Trevor Hannant]

From a VATSIM UK perspective, the following has now been published over there:

https://community.vatsim.uk/topic/38857-notam-concorde-routings-following-airac-2303/

Hopefully(!) controllers, particularly those handling clearances, will take this on board - but please feel free to point them in the direction of there if they question your routing...

[John Price]

Very, very useful indeed, Trevor. I was a bit worried about Concorde procedures on VATSIM, but it looks a lot more straightforward than I thought.

[Trevor Hannant]

Thanks John, it's the same information Andrew posted in post #2 but with some additional background and a couple of extra routings that we've already seen during testing for the controllers over there.

[John Price]

Just as an addition while talking about Concorde on VATSIM, if London controllers are online and Shanwick is online too, do we get the oceanic clearance from London on the ground at Heathrow? Or do we just request it en route in the same way ordinary subsonic airliners do? I got the impression from the ITVV video that the oceanic clearance is arranged on the ground.

[Trevor Hannant]

Andrew or perhaps @Fraser Gale can jump in on the RW procedures and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they requested clearance on the ground prior to departure?

On VATSIM, there's no hard and fast rule - as long as you request it prior to 30 mins before Oceanic entry, I doubt anyone will kick up a stink about where that clearance is obtained.  Of course, it will depend on workload - do you want to try and get it while preparing to make your climb and acceleration?  Then again, if the Shanwick/Gander controller is using the NATTrak website (which they should) for clearances, you can have this prepped in the background and confirm the entry time once you're airborne before submitting...

[Andy Smith]

I hope i remember this correctly.

Please correct me if i'm wrong.

If you draw a straight line down from Edinburgh Airport (EGPH).....

Any departure West of that line gets Oceanic Clearance before departure from London Control.

Any departure East of that line gets Oceanic Clearance after departure from Shanwick.

It as been ages since i did one.

Edited April 5 by Andy Smith
correction

[Andrew Wilson]

They called in to LHR DEL 30mins before start and I presume that got the ball rolling on sorting out their oceanic clearance (Shanwick also had to work with Paris to ensure no conflicts on Sierra Mike). Once airborne, they called up Shanwick VHF 127.9 passing MALBY with an eta for SM15W. Selcal check at 15W and position at 20W.

[Fraser Gale]

Andrew just got in first but all UK outbound services had to call 30mins before scheduled departure time and would be given a clearance including whether it was to be a standard routing or non-standard.  If there were high upper temperatures forecast the crew could request supersonic track entry at a lower altitude, as they would usually be “cleared to climb in the block, flight level 500, 600” which basically meant they had to get to FL500 in the transition area.  On a warm day that could be difficult.

Then as Andrew says. 

[Will Fibich]

1 hour ago, John Price said:

do we get the oceanic clearance from London on the ground at Heathrow?

I've tried to get the ball rolling before push and it's never worked, they kinda just tell you off and you do it in the air (at least in my attempts)

[Craig Baillie]

Not Heathrow no. 
 

Used to be Manchester northwards IIRC; I’d have to check with my oceanic colleagues if that’s still a thing!

[Fraser Gale]

As the general rule was clearance 30 minutes before entering the Shanwick (transition?) area and as Concorde got to the acceleration point in between 18 and 25 minutes clearance had to be setup early so that it was all routine.  Though the accel point was still within domestic airspace if I remember correctly, the time from there to the Atlantic track wasn’t much and once she started accelerating there was no slowing down or holding to meet a clearance so…. In reality she was usually on time out of London so ATC would’ve known she was coming but the calls just confirmed everything.  The 30 minute call on the ground would have been affected by the aircraft going tech and switching to the standby etc.  

[Trevor Hannant]

13 hours ago, Andy Smith said:

I hope i remember this correctly.

Please correct me if i'm wrong.

If you draw a straight line down from Edinburgh Airport (EGPH).....

Any departure West of that line gets Oceanic Clearance before departure from London Control.

Any departure East of that line gets Oceanic Clearance after departure from Shanwick.

It as been ages since i did one.

It's pretty much that split east/west for "normal" traffic - the table of who should call when can be seen here (section 3.8.2.2 of NATS ENR 2.2 refers):

Note that Oceanic clearance doesn't come from London/Scottish Control, it comes from Shanwick Clearance Delivery so you would tune to them at the appropriate time (or use CPDLC) to obtain (again, for "normal" traffic).   Concorde's rules were as posted above (obtained on ground due to speed at which it got there).