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Chuck us a bone... please!


Ray Proudfoot

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Ray Proudfoot

Andrew and Lefteris. Chuck us a bone please. A few screenshots of Concorde’s virtual cockpit and engineer’s panel, preferably in UHD. No words needed. No release date requested. ;)

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Steve Prowse

Ray, it’s very difficult to chuck bones....when there’s simply no bones.  Unfortunately there never will be, we have to accept that, for me I’m still using vanilla FSX-SE for Concorde only.  I know you think I’m negative on this issue but there isn’t a shred of evidence from FSL to suggest they have made any progress to date...nothing.  In summary we are not going to get a FSL Concorde 64 bit.

 

best regards

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Ray Proudfoot
4 hours ago, Steve Prowse said:

Ray, it’s very difficult to chuck bones....when there’s simply no bones.  Unfortunately there never will be, we have to accept that, for me I’m still using vanilla FSX-SE for Concorde only.  I know you think I’m negative on this issue but there isn’t a shred of evidence from FSL to suggest they have made any progress to date...nothing.  In summary we are not going to get a FSL Concorde 64 bit.

 

best regards

Hi Steve, both Andrew and Lefteris have stated work progresses so until they announce anything to the contrary I accept they are telling the truth.

The reason I only asked for images and no words was to give them the opportunity to show what progress has been made. If they choose not to it’s for one of three reasons - 1) they haven’t started on the graphics yet; 2) remain stubbornly defiant that nothing will be said publicly until it’s ready for purchase or 3) work has been abandoned.

Hopefully it’s not 3.

 

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Fraser Gale

As I've voiced before (and not that long ago...) in a previous thred with the exact same theme but a different title: 

I have never heard of someone continually going into a shop asking if something has been developed/invented/created in any other walk of life, and in fact we are lucky that FSLabs even considered doing a 64 bit upgrade far less that they told us they were working on one.  

They said work was progressing and I'm sure they are as good as their word, if not then when the abandonment announcement occurs we have grounds to be annoyed.  I am assuming that technology used to make the Airbus addons so accurate will in fact filter into Concorde development (ironic considering the real Concorde filtered into everything else) making it far more accurate than the current version, so it may be (guessing) that in the long run we will benefit from being somewhat last in the que. 

Now sit back, relax, and go fly a DC-3 Dakota to pay tribute to those who never lived to see Concorde, a PC or a flight simulator!

 

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Steve Prowse
6 hours ago, Fraser Gale said:

They said work was progressing and I'm sure they are as good as their word, if not then when the abandonment announcement occurs we have grounds to be annoyed.

Why should we be annoyed?  You seem to always suggest that we should always be ever so umble ....and count ourselves lucky that FSL even considered upgrading Concorde. It seems to me you should just ever so umbly thank FSL for considering the development of a new Concorde, and beg their forgiveness for any inconvenience that we umble potential customers  caused. May I remind you that in fact we lucky individuals had to email FSL to state we would buy the upgraded version...or something like that.  Only after that FSL decided to develop a 64 bit Concorde.  Which I and many others were overjoyed about.  There is absolutely nothing wrong in asking for an update on progress;  if there was a constructive update given, then there would be no reason to continually ask for one!

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Fraser Gale
6 hours ago, Steve Prowse said:

Why should we be annoyed?  You seem to always suggest that we should always be ever so umble ....and count ourselves lucky that FSL even considered upgrading Concorde. It seems to me you should just ever so umbly thank FSL for considering the development of a new Concorde, and beg their forgiveness for any inconvenience that we umble potential customers  caused. May I remind you that in fact we lucky individuals had to email FSL to state we would buy the upgraded version...or something like that.  Only after that FSL decided to develop a 64 bit Concorde.  Which I and many others were overjoyed about.  There is absolutely nothing wrong in asking for an update on progress;  if there was a constructive update given, then there would be no reason to continually ask for one!

You have taken one sentence from my post and quoted it out of context, then you have contradicted yourself because in an earlier post you stated that there never will be a 64 bit version....  

I haven't forgotten that we had to email, and I have never said we customers were causing FSLabs any inconvenience so where you got that from is mind boggling.  This is precisely why posts asking for updates cause nothing but tension because everyone has their own opinion (which they are more than entitled to) but no one is necessarily in posetion of the facts.  

The tone of your post is rather unnecessary. 

At the end of the day, the fact is that if FSLabs want to share news, they will and I have never seen a post requesting news actually being rewarded by such information.  

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Ray Proudfoot

A lot of simmers now have X-Plane as well as P3D. Up to a few months ago FSL had the monopoly on Concorde. That is no longer the case. Whilst the ‘rival’ version needs an awful lot of improvement to get close to the FSL one it might still appeal to those who, quite frankly, are fed up waiting for news on the 64-bit version and have XP. Let us remind ourselves this is not a new build but a conversion. You’re not starting with a blank sheet of paper.

If I went into a shop and asked the owner a couple of times a year how his new product was coming along and he just blanked me I would be justifiably annoyed. That is a dangerous game to play now that there is another developer in town.

And just to clarify a point. In my request I clearly stated no words were necessary. Just a few images to show what progress has been made. So it is not the same as my earlier requests as has been claimed.

The wall of silence might be company policy but there have been previous decisions that were company policy and look at how one in particular turned out. FSL need to rethink how best to advertise their products. Silence is a strange way of doing it.

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Søren Dissing
44 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

... but there have been previous decisions that were company policy and look at how one in particular turned out. 

Sorry Ray, but that is completely uncalled for in this particular context. 

Much as we all want the 64-bit Concorde to materialise at some point why can't you just accept that no news is good news?

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Ray Proudfoot
39 minutes ago, Søren Dissing said:

Sorry Ray, but that is completely uncalled for in this particular context. 

Much as we all want the 64-bit Concorde to materialise at some point why can't you just accept that no news is good news?

Soren, I stated a fact, not opinion. And if you look back over my posts at that time I posted that despite what happened I still had full trust in both Andew and Lefteris. Plenty didn't.

I've love to believe that no news is good news. Things could be clarified with an up-to-date roadmap of FSL projects and the timescale for each. If you look in the Announcements section this post from Lefteris almost a year ago stated " We hope to have previews to show you later in the year as things continue to progress here."

That was in relation to the Concorde 64-bit announcement. There has been no further news in that section since. So my request for a preview is entirely justified given that was the last official statement.

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Fraser Gale
4 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

If I went into a shop and asked the owner a couple of times a year how his new product was coming along and he just blanked me I would be justifiably annoyed.

Have you actually done this? 

5 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Let us remind ourselves this is not a new build but a conversion. You’re not starting with a blank sheet of paper.

That's not necessarily a fact, I don't think a pure conversion was the intention from what the original posts said. 

5 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

And just to clarify a point. In my request I clearly stated no words were necessary. Just a few images to show what progress has been made. So it is not the same as my earlier requests as has been claimed.

It equates to information or an update on progress, which is the same thing.

5 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

The wall of silence might be company policy but there have been previous decisions that were company policy and look at how one in particular turned out. FSL need to rethink how best to advertise their products. Silence is a strange way of doing it.

The previous decisions are not relevant to you wanting information on a product, and I don't think you can say they are advertising a product because it hasn't been finished, therefore there is nothing to advertise. 

I'd rather we didn't go round in circles arguing about this again, it isn't good for the forum.  Everyone has their own viewpoint so it might be best to leave it at that. 

One thing, it might be best to tag the relevant people (Andrew et al) if you want a response from them @Ray Proudfoot to bring their attention to the thread.  Seeing how many posts do up on the Airbus forum each day, I reckon they might be busy.  Maybe send one of them a PM with your concerns rather than criticising the company publicly...?  

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Ray Proudfoot
2 hours ago, Fraser Gale said:

Have you actually done this? 

That's not necessarily a fact, I don't think a pure conversion was the intention from what the original posts said. 

It equates to information or an update on progress, which is the same thing.

The previous decisions are not relevant to you wanting information on a product, and I don't think you can say they are advertising a product because it hasn't been finished, therefore there is nothing to advertise. 

I'd rather we didn't go round in circles arguing about this again, it isn't good for the forum.  Everyone has their own viewpoint so it might be best to leave it at that. 

One thing, it might be best to tag the relevant people (Andrew et al) if you want a response from them @Ray Proudfoot to bring their attention to the thread.  Seeing how many posts do up on the Airbus forum each day, I reckon they might be busy.  Maybe send one of them a PM with your concerns rather than criticising the company publicly...?  

Pretty close. I asked @Andrew Wilson when I met him on the FSL stand at Cosford last October. He didn't blank me. He was polite and gave as much info as he was able to. But given that was only three months after the June announcement I knew there wouldn't be much to say. He certainly didn't ignore me.

We're both summising on how much work is involved. Throwing away all the 32-bit code would seen odd.

Regarding the rest of your post I don't see any point in discussing it with you. Who's arguing? I'm not and neither are you. We have different ideas on how  progress should be announced. Aerosoft announce new projects well in advance of their actual release even though they're not involved in the coding. That's how they do things and people appreciate it.

I don't see anything beneficial to a blanket ban on news. It frustrates and achieves nothing. I'm not impatient but when a statement was made last June with a promise that further news would be made before the end of the year I expect that to be honoured. Here we are 6 months into a new year and nothing. That's why I posted and feel justified in doing so.

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Fraser Gale
1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Pretty close. I asked @Andrew Wilson when I met him on the FSL stand at Cosford last October. He didn't blank me. He was polite and gave as much info as he was able to. But given that was only three months after the June announcement I knew there wouldn't be much to say. He certainly didn't ignore me.

We're both summising on how much work is involved. Throwing away all the 32-bit code would seen odd.

Regarding the rest of your post I don't see any point in discussing it with you. Who's arguing? I'm not and neither are you. We have different ideas on how  progress should be announced. Aerosoft announce new projects well in advance of their actual release even though they're not involved in the coding. That's how they do things and people appreciate it.

I don't see anything beneficial to a blanket ban on news. It frustrates and achieves nothing. I'm not impatient but when a statement was made last June with a promise that further news would be made before the end of the year I expect that to be honoured. Here we are 6 months into a new year and nothing. That's why I posted and feel justified in doing so.

I meant have you gone into a real (not flight sim) shop and continually asked about a new product...

The post you refer to DOES NOT promise anything, the wording was "We hope to have previews to show you later in the year as things continue to progress here" now if other things meant that progress was slower than expected, they have not gone back on their word.  That post also states the amount of work that had already gone into the new Concorde, which other people on here (not yourself Ray) are saying doesn't exist.....

When all said and done, each company is free to run customer service however they wish so we can't really compare one addon developer to another.  If FSLabs had given some teasers people would then be saying why can't it be released, by not giving information they are not opening themselves up to further criticism.  

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Ray Proudfoot
1 hour ago, Fraser Gale said:

I meant have you gone into a real (not flight sim) shop and continually asked about a new product...

The post you refer to DOES NOT promise anything, the wording was "We hope to have previews to show you later in the year as things continue to progress here" now if other things meant that progress was slower than expected, they have not gone back on their word.  That post also states the amount of work that had already gone into the new Concorde, which other people on here (not yourself Ray) are saying doesn't exist.....

When all said and done, each company is free to run customer service however they wish so we can't really compare one addon developer to another.  If FSLabs had given some teasers people would then be saying why can't it be released, by not giving information they are not opening themselves up to further criticism.  

Have you really thought that question through? I don't think you have. Let's suppose I want a new TV. I go into a local retailer and ask if it's available. He say's no and doesn't know when it will be in stock. I go in a month later, ask the same question and get the same answer. I ring another retailer and he says the same. I search the internet for it and find it's available in a town 30 miles away. I ring them up, they confirm it's in stock and I either drive there and buy it or arrange for delivery.

What I don't do is keep going into the same shop and continually ask the same question. But software isn't like physical goods. Especially one particular type of software that is only available from one on-line retailer. I have to ask them because there's no-one else to ask. I can't get it from anywhere else. And I don't ask continually ask as you suggest. I wait a few months and if nothing has happened I'll ask again.

How long would you wait before posting the question? Two years? Five years? Or perhaps never.

How long would it take @Lefteris Kalamaras to post an update in Anouncements? Five minutes? A delay would disappoint people but at least FSL are communicating with people who will become their customers. Do you not think that is an important aspect of a successful business? Keeping your potential customers informed? I do and I'm sure many others do too.

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Fraser Gale
38 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Have you really thought that question through? I don't think you have. Let's suppose I want a new TV. I go into a local retailer and ask if it's available. He say's no and doesn't know when it will be in stock. I go in a month later, ask the same question and get the same answer. I ring another retailer and he says the same. I search the internet for it and find it's available in a town 30 miles away. I ring them up, they confirm it's in stock and I either drive there and buy it or arrange for delivery.

What I don't do is keep going into the same shop and continually ask the same question. But software isn't like physical goods. Especially one particular type of software that is only available from one on-line retailer. I have to ask them because there's no-one else to ask. I can't get it from anywhere else. And I don't ask continually ask as you suggest. I wait a few months and if nothing has happened I'll ask again.

How long would you wait before posting the question? Two years? Five years? Or perhaps never.

How long would it take @Lefteris Kalamaras to post an update in Anouncements? Five minutes? A delay would disappoint people but at least FSL are communicating with people who will become their customers. Do you not think that is an important aspect of a successful business? Keeping your potential customers informed? I do and I'm sure many others do too.

Your TV analogy is different because you are asking for something that has clearly already been produced.  The only way this would be the same is if you had seen advanced advertising for a new model and went to ask about it, but producing a product like a TV is much easier to put a release date on because there are less variables, allowing advanced advertising to be timed in an efficient way. 

I haven't posed the question about Concorde so there is your answer.  I have witnessed the same questions being asked on the Airbus forum pre-release and I can't ever recall new information being forthcoming, hence I think it is a waste of time asking and discussing. 

As a consumer, I can only think of gaining support with a product after purchase, I can't think of ever having communication from a company before I'd bought something.  

Anyway, I'm done. 

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Ray Proudfoot

You say the TV scenario is different but you won’t give me a scenario that fits your question. I can choose a TV from many different manufacturers. I’m not limited to one and a particular model at that.

I’ve said as much as I intend to on this. If FSL respond all well and good. If they don’t then some here who have X-Plane might decide to take a different course.

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Fraser Gale
1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

You say the TV scenario is different but you won’t give me a scenario that fits your question. I can choose a TV from many different manufacturers. I’m not limited to one and a particular model at that.

I’ve said as much as I intend to on this. If FSL respond all well and good. If they don’t then some here who have X-Plane might decide to take a different course.

I did give you an adjustment to your scenario.  People can move to XP if they wish, that is their choice.  Personally, I wasn't impressed by the video at all and while I'm sure it will improve over time, I doubt it will have the accuracy and fidelity of even our current version.  Several little clues gave away the fact that whoever is writing the code doesn't currently have the Concorde technical knowledge to make it fully accurate. I'm not planning to switch to XP now as I have invested so much in P3d and I think the majority of people who like real world fidelity will be of the same mind.

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Ray Proudfoot

I have no plans to switch to XP just for one aircraft that, as you rightly say, shows none of the fidelity of the FSL version. But there are those who won't have knowledge of how Concorde should fly and look at the outside model and be swayed by it.

I have spent money on airports I use purely for Concorde flights. It's frustrating they remain unused in P3Dv4. And I now have a powerful PC where I can ramp up a lot of the settings and it copes with ease but I cannot use that power in P3Dv3 because the VAS runs out. Grgghh!

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Ray Proudfoot

The other thing FSL should bear in mind is time. A year or two doesn't sound much when you're in your 40s or 50s. But by the time you get to your late 60s another year makes a difference.

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Fraser Gale

I see what you are saying, but none of us can stop the process of time and I think that on this one you are going to have to accept that the developers won't comment unless they want to. 

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Ray Proudfoot

Andrew has posted on the Airbus section and appears to be busy so I don’t hold out much hope. Kept my eye in today with EGLL-KJFK in 3hr 13m. One of my faster crossings.

But P3D v3 looks bloody awful in 1920*1080 when you’ve got used to v4 in UHD. :wacko:

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Konstantin
36 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

But P3D v3 looks bloody awful in 1920*1080 when you’ve got used to v4 in UHD. :wacko:

And for this reason, I don't plan to switch to 4k soon. If I did it, I would too quickly get used to the better quality, and reverting back to anything less would feel like it's bad quality.

Believe it or not, I am using a 1680x1050 screen, and I am happy with it!  It reduces the load on the GPU, and saves VAS on top of that.

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Ray Proudfoot

@Konstantin, I understand but I had a Sony TV as my main display and the PQ was nowhere near as good as a monitor. A friend was keen to buy it and knowing my 1080Ti could run 4K easily I took the plunge. What graphics card do you have?

The quality of 4K is breathtaking. You would never want to go back to lesser resolutions. My BenQ is an excellent monitor and after turning off most anti-alias options the upscale image is certainly usable. I have loaded Concorde in 4K and enjoyed the image quality in the 10 seconds before all the VAS was used up! ☹️

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Konstantin

My video card is only a 1050Ti, which already struggles with 1920x1080 resolution under some weather conditions. I have a low-profile computer system, and this is currently the fastest low-profile video card available in the market, which is why I can't use better ones.

Knowing that I would never want to go back to lesser resolutions after experiencing 4k, I therefore don't even bother to go 4k. You know, it's too easy to get used to better things, but hard to lower your standards. If I am happy with my current resolution (which is a huge improvement after using 1024x768 twenty years ago), I don't see the necessity to become spoiled with something that would make it hard to accept lower resolutions.

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Ray Proudfoot

Kostantin, I fully understand. I am somewhat lucky in that I can afford the kit that makes 4K so enjoyable. I can remember the days of 800*600 and 1024*768 looked wonderful. Nothing stands still in computing.

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Ray Proudfoot

Samsung have announced 8K TVs. That’s a mere 7680*4320 or 33,177,600 pixels perhaps being refreshed at least 20fps with the fastest card available. Mind boggling.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Søren Dissing

Seems the bone is frozen mid-air:

Quote from the Annoncement: 
"The Concorde-X for 64-bit is now officially on pause. While we received some strong support from customers regarding future sales on P3Dv4, we have to ensure that we align our business model with the significant development news that we received from Microsoft, and since the aircraft is so specialized, we prefer to evaluate further once there are more details on the new platform."

 

 

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Ray Proudfoot

I'm speechless. Absolutely bloody speechless! It's as though FSL are looking for any excuse not to work on a 64-bit Concorde. You would think that after 18 months most of the work would be completed given it's a conversion, not a new write.

But they still work on the Airbus models. What difference is there between an A319, A320 and now an A321? Just a bit bigger or smaller. Still subsonic and to most eyes they just look the bloody same.

I really feel let down by the people who make the decisions at FSL. If they feel the new Microsoft Flight Simulator poses a threat to their business then what's the difference between an Airbus - take your pick from 3 - or Concorde - a unique aircraft. If they are working on an Airbus they work on Concorde!!

I can tell you now there's no way I'll be buying (or renting) the new Microsoft sim. I very much doubt there'll be an SDK so that's all 3rd party dvelopment out of the window.. I shall be staying with P3D with or without a 64-bit Concorde. But why don't FSL run a survey on who would stay with P3D because they might just be surprised by the results. Some may get the new sim but they certainly won't be wiping P3D 64-bit off their systems and losing all the money invested in their 64-bit purchases.

Microsoft only annnounced this 8 days ago. Something of a knee-jerk reaction from FSL I think. And just how long is this pause? As far as most of us are concerned it's been paused for quite a long time already given the lack of news.

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Ray Proudfoot

From @Lefteris Kalamaras... " The Concorde-X for 64-bit is now officially on pause. While we received some strong support from customers regarding future sales on P3Dv4, we have to ensure that we align our business model with the significant development news that we received from Microsoft, and since the aircraft is so specialized, we prefer to evaluate further once there are more details on the new platform"

You put a message out some time ago and received enough emails to satisfy yourselves there was sufficient interest to create a 64-bit Concorde. How has this news from Microsoft changed that decision. You haven't done any form of survey to know how people will decide whether to stay with P3D or switch to FS2020. They could use both. Run a survey and make decisions based on feedback - not just guesswork. :(

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Steve Prowse

Well my friends I have been trying to warn you all....I hate to say it.  But I’m still so bloody outraged by this I can’t write anymore....I’d get banned.....shouldn’t wonder this thread is shortly going to be locked...

 

 

OUT bloody RAGEOUS!!!!

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Joseph Chamberlain

Quite disappointing really...

If they feel it would do better on the new sim, we're back to nil on development of Concorde as I highly doubt any part of it would be useful for FS2020.

le sigh...

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Steve Prowse
On 6/7/2019 at 6:00 PM, Søren Dissing said:

Much as we all want the 64-bit Concorde to materialise at some point why can't you just accept that no news is good news?

Now I can say because no news is not good news....just like I told you.....

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Fraser Gale
9 minutes ago, Steve Prowse said:

Now I can say because no news is not good news....just like I told you.....

See my new topic, but I have to say there is no need to be quite so horrid on this forum. 

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David Porrett

Sounds like a pretty lame excuse.

They would be better just coming out and saying "we've stopped it because we don't want to do it" rather than pin it to this new MSFS that no one knows anything about.

Just wanted to have my say before the lock is applied.

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Not only has the development of a new Concorde been put on pause (officially), but I can't understand why FSL will stop selling Concorde-X for P3Dv3 effective from the end of this month. From what I know, that simulator is still supported by LM, and this would be the only way to experience Concorde in a simulator. Though it doesn't affect me, but after June 30th, there will be no way whatsoever for potential new customers to buy ConcordeX and get immersed into this great product.

If it is not feasible to develop a new Concorde from a business perspective, maybe FSL could port the existing Concorde into the 64bit realm as a fair compromise. This is obviously merely the second best option (most would have preferred a complete overhaul), but I am sure that a lot of P3D v4 users would definitely prefer a port over having no Concorde at all. Porting the existing Concorde could be much simpler and cheaper.

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Fraser Gale
6 hours ago, Konstantin said:

Not only has the development of a new Concorde been put on pause (officially), but I can't understand why FSL will stop selling Concorde-X for P3Dv3 effective from the end of this month. From what I know, that simulator is still supported by LM, and this would be the only way to experience Concorde in a simulator. Though it doesn't affect me, but after June 30th, there will be no way whatsoever for potential new customers to buy ConcordeX and get immersed into this great product.

If it is not feasible to develop a new Concorde from a business perspective, maybe FSL could port the existing Concorde into the 64bit realm as a fair compromise. This is obviously merely the second best option (most would have preferred a complete overhaul), but I am sure that a lot of P3D v4 users would definitely prefer a port over having no Concorde at all. Porting the existing Concorde could be much simpler and cheaper.

Agreed.  I'm guessing the response to that would be that few copies have been purchased recently but that is not a valid argument as many people would have been waiting for the new version, rather than spend money twice.

She's been dumped, just like the real thing. 

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Steve Prowse
1 hour ago, Fraser Gale said:

She's been dumped, just like the real thing. 

Yeah agreed she has indeed been dumped and we've all been punched in the gut.  What a truly glorious way to treat your customers.  I do have a couple of questions for the 'Management'; Do you intend to keep the Concorde forum open?  Do you intend to sell the download version of Concorde to an online retailer, eg, Just flight or the like?  

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Ray Proudfoot

I agree with @Konstantinabout FSL investigating the possibility of porting the existing 32-bit version into 64-bit. Surely far less work. And although the graphics would still be the same I'm sure we could all accept that just to be able to fly her in a sim where we can have reasonable amounts of Ai and scenery complexity.

For any of you visiting the annual flight sim show at Cosford in October make sure you express your feelings to FSL. I certainly will be.

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Don't worry guys, when FSL will stop selling ConcordeX for FSX/P3D, you will still be able to buy the SSTSIM Concorde for FS2004! :lol:  (And OOMs will become a thing of the past) :D

http://www.flight1.com/products.asp?product=sstsim

Isn't it ironic that a Concorde for an outdated flight simulator is still being sold as many as 12 years after its first release, while the one for P3D is scrapped at an age of 3.5 years?

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