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Leny Amarante

Tips for landing needed ?

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Leny Amarante
20 hours ago, Jay Collie said:

Leny,

I forgot to add that Airbus publishes a magazine that has all types of great information regarding all their airplanes. Here was an article I read awhile back. You can do a search online for their magazine (its called FAST) and find all types of great information on landing techniques. 

https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/control-your-speed-during-descent-approach-and-landing/

Jay

Thank you again , I will take a look at it right now .  :)

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Leny Amarante
46 minutes ago, George Westwell said:

I would suggest you try FSiPanel - you can position and configure the aircraft - and then repeat landings at will.

Thank you will try , however I did try using FSUIPC auto save once , but when I restart the sim the A319 would just react in all sort of unstable ways . Does your suggestion manages to save the aircraft panel inputs correctly ?

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Jonah Desrochers

I have also struggled with this specific aircraft in the flare. I've been flying in the real world for 10 years. I'm not type rated on the 320 series, but I have a few ideas about what could be going on here.

First of all, this is an amazing addon. Hats off to you guys; this is truly a gem. I've enjoyed many hours in it so far, having only purchased a few weeks ago. However, I don't think it is entirely fair to discount landing rate monitors. With every single other addon for P3D (including very complex flight models like Majestic Q400, A2A, and PMDG), the landing rate monitor gives very predictable results (if I plant it, the results show, if I grease, this also shows). Additionally, I use motion effects via Chaseplane with visualize accelerations with camera motion. In every other aircraft, a landing under -200fpm results in a soft "bump" of the camera, whereas anything in excess of that will result in a violent jerk of the camera.

I am willing to accept that there are limitations with LRMs and camera shake addons, but vertical speed shouldn't lie (albeit indicated V/S being a bit delayed vs actual). So I followed your flare advice of watching the auto-land do its thing. The result? The auto-land absolutely creams the thing onto the runway! Yes, it is well within the touchdown zone, but it's as if ground effect doesn't exist at all. The pitch up from 2.5 to 5.5 degrees in the flare only reduces the sink rate a couple hundred fpm. When the auto-land flares, it touches down right as the V/S needle is passing through -300 fpm. You have stated that the FCOM lists -360 fpm as the maximum descent rate for a MGW+ landing. I know auto-land isn't supposed to make the smoothest landing, but this is quite violent.

I agree with you guys about the control response curves. It makes no sense to change these. I understand this aircraft may not be a floater, but is it really this much of a brick?

At the end of the day, is a good landing about a greasy touchdown? No. Is every landing going to be smooth? No. As a real world pilot, I understand this as well as anyone. However, why is this aircraft more difficult to achieve similar landing rates compared to every other aircraft I've used in the sim? I have taken a video of the 320 doing an auto-land and can show you the VSI at touchdown; I can upload on request.

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Gerard Beekmans
2 minutes ago, Jonah Desrochers said:

At the end of the day, is a good landing about a greasy touchdown? No. Is every landing going to be smooth? No. As a real world pilot, I understand this as well as anyone. However, why is this aircraft more difficult to achieve similar landing rates compared to every other aircraft I've used in the sim? I have taken a video of the 320 doing an auto-land and can show you the VSI at touchdown; I can upload on request.

Agreed on your points that not all landings will be smooth. I'd like to see your video(s) for comparison. When I use autoland I get consistent landings that register in the -250 range. I know the VSI needle lags behind. The virtual airline I fly for provides ACARS software that also monitors flight parameter and it concurs with the -250 autoland rate whereas my hand-flying still produces -600 to -700 consistently (based on glancing at the needle and the ACARS software).

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Leny Amarante

Hi everyone , just one quick question to you all . When touch down and flare is perform do you guys activate reverser while the nose is still pitch up in flare mode right when the main back landing gear touch down or do you activate reverser when the aircraft fully touches down ? I was reading this section of the FCTM "A slight pitch-up, easily controlled by the crew, may appear when the thrust reversers are deployed before the nose landing gear touches down" I would like to know if I understood that correctly. 

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Simon Kelsey

In normal operations it would be quite normal to select reverse as soon as main gear touchdown occurs.

Note however that reverse selection is the 'point of no return' - after this point you are committed to a full stop landing (i.e. do not attempt to go around!)

  • Thanks 1

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Leny Amarante
47 minutes ago, Simon Kelsey said:

In normal operations it would be quite normal to select reverse as soon as main gear touchdown occurs.

Note however that reverse selection is the 'point is no return' - after this point you are committed to a full stop landing (i.e. do not attempt to go around!)

Hi , thank you I just notice that when touchdown , the aircraft slows down rather smooth with autobreak to low . In the past I would apply reverser when the nose wheel touchdown this would cause the aircraft to take longer to slowdown at low autobreak config . Now by applying reverser while the nose is still pitch up the aircraft slow itself down rather smoothly .  

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brendon powys

1 Q . Is reverse thrust applied before or after the nose wheel hits the ground. 

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Stu Antonio
3 minutes ago, brendon powys said:

1 Q . Is reverse thrust applied before or after the nose wheel hits the ground. 

This question is answered right above your post........................ !?

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brendon powys
1 hour ago, Stu Antonio said:

This question is answered right above your post........................ !?

Ah thanx missed that 1

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Jonah Desrochers

This may be placebo, but after the 347 update, the flare seems must more controllable. I will do further testing later. Thank you FSLabs for your hard work on this update!

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Koen Meier
2 minutes ago, Jonah Desrochers said:

This may be placebo, but after the 347 update, the flare seems must more controllable. I will do further testing later. Thank you FSLabs for your hard work on this update!

Yeah the updated the flightmodel so yeah it should be a lot better I guess.

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Jay Collie
On 4/11/2019 at 2:19 AM, Leny Amarante said:

Hi everyone , just one quick question to you all . When touch down and flare is perform do you guys activate reverser while the nose is still pitch up in flare mode right when the main back landing gear touch down or do you activate reverser when the aircraft fully touches down ? I was reading this section of the FCTM "A slight pitch-up, easily controlled by the crew, may appear when the thrust reversers are deployed before the nose landing gear touches down" I would like to know if I understood that correctly. 

Hi Leny,

The nose pitch up comes mainly from spoiler deployment upon touchdown. I find it barely noticeable in the 320, but in the 321 it's really significant. In the 320, when the mains touch,  I find that just a little slight back pressure on the side stick is enough "de-rotate" the nose versus it slamming down. On short runways, with medium autobrakes, once they grab (and you can really feel them too) , the nose has a tendency to slam down. So most of us, will move the side stick a little more aft to control that. However, with the 321, I actually find I have to release the pressure because of the pitch up tendency with ground spoiler deployment. Tail strikes become a concern with that airplane...especially if you have floated a little more than normal. Our 321's will give us a warning "pitch pitch pitch" when the pitch is too high in the flare and I've only heard it once in my entire time on the airplane. We were landing in MDSD on runways 35 in gusty wind conditions when that happened. My airline likes to use "idle reverse" when we can to save wear and tear on the engines. Most folks go into idle reverse while lowering the nose, but we wait until the nose wheel is on the ground before we go into more than idle. Lastly, as Simon's post says, you are committed once you go into reverse. Here is a good article on page 5 about attempting to go around after initiating thrust reverser deployment. As always, hope this helps a little.

https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corporate-topics/publications/safety-first/Airbus_Safety_first_magazine_14.pdf

Jay

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Leny Amarante
6 hours ago, Jay Collie said:

Hi Leny,

The nose pitch up comes mainly from spoiler deployment upon touchdown. I find it barely noticeable in the 320, but in the 321 it's really significant. In the 320, when the mains touch,  I find that just a little slight back pressure on the side stick is enough "de-rotate" the nose versus it slamming down. On short runways, with medium autobrakes, once they grab (and you can really feel them too) , the nose has a tendency to slam down. So most of us, will move the side stick a little more aft to control that. However, with the 321, I actually find I have to release the pressure because of the pitch up tendency with ground spoiler deployment. Tail strikes become a concern with that airplane...especially if you have floated a little more than normal. Our 321's will give us a warning "pitch pitch pitch" when the pitch is too high in the flare and I've only heard it once in my entire time on the airplane. We were landing in MDSD on runways 35 in gusty wind conditions when that happened. My airline likes to use "idle reverse" when we can to save wear and tear on the engines. Most folks go into idle reverse while lowering the nose, but we wait until the nose wheel is on the ground before we go into more than idle. Lastly, as Simon's post says, you are committed once you go into reverse. Here is a good article on page 5 about attempting to go around after initiating thrust reverser deployment. As always, hope this helps a little.

https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corporate-topics/publications/safety-first/Airbus_Safety_first_magazine_14.pdf

Jay

Wawo , saw this with the A320 , I didn't manage to do a good flare and the a320 callout pitch pitch several time . This was the only time recently that I floated upon flare so I choose to go around almost a touch and go , but I was not stable. I am recently only flying FSLAB A320 I really want to focus and read all the info you guys can provide to better handle the flare. However before the update I was mainly flying the A319 as I found it more easier to flare . Now with the A320 it's been such a long time I had flown it , now with this amazing update by FSLAB the a320 is all I'm flying . I am having a little problem with the load sheet message not appearing for some reason . I have read the tutorial several times , this little issue have been distracting me from reading more about better handling the flare technique . 

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Ross Emanuel
On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 3:18 AM, Jonah Desrochers said:

I have also struggled with this specific aircraft in the flare. I've been flying in the real world for 10 years. I'm not type rated on the 320 series, but I have a few ideas about what could be going on here.

First of all, this is an amazing addon. Hats off to you guys; this is truly a gem. I've enjoyed many hours in it so far, having only purchased a few weeks ago. However, I don't think it is entirely fair to discount landing rate monitors. With every single other addon for P3D (including very complex flight models like Majestic Q400, A2A, and PMDG), the landing rate monitor gives very predictable results (if I plant it, the results show, if I grease, this also shows). Additionally, I use motion effects via Chaseplane with visualize accelerations with camera motion. In every other aircraft, a landing under -200fpm results in a soft "bump" of the camera, whereas anything in excess of that will result in a violent jerk of the camera.

I am willing to accept that there are limitations with LRMs and camera shake addons, but vertical speed shouldn't lie (albeit indicated V/S being a bit delayed vs actual). So I followed your flare advice of watching the auto-land do its thing. The result? The auto-land absolutely creams the thing onto the runway! Yes, it is well within the touchdown zone, but it's as if ground effect doesn't exist at all. The pitch up from 2.5 to 5.5 degrees in the flare only reduces the sink rate a couple hundred fpm. When the auto-land flares, it touches down right as the V/S needle is passing through -300 fpm. You have stated that the FCOM lists -360 fpm as the maximum descent rate for a MGW+ landing. I know auto-land isn't supposed to make the smoothest landing, but this is quite violent.

I agree with you guys about the control response curves. It makes no sense to change these. I understand this aircraft may not be a floater, but is it really this much of a brick?

At the end of the day, is a good landing about a greasy touchdown? No. Is every landing going to be smooth? No. As a real world pilot, I understand this as well as anyone. However, why is this aircraft more difficult to achieve similar landing rates compared to every other aircraft I've used in the sim? I have taken a video of the 320 doing an auto-land and can show you the VSI at touchdown; I can upload on request.

Hello Jonah,

I'm 100% agree with you. 

I am struggling about the landings with A3XX series, but no one seems to have the same feelings but you.

I have the seem feelings about the bus as yours. I use virtual airline QAR software to fly in the sim, and any other aircraft seemed normal, which with landing rate -200 and land maximum VAC around 1.1G . But it became crazy when it comes to the bus, I always get like -250 fpm with around 1.7-2.0G max VAC during landing(these data was directly recorded via FSUIPC).

This troubles me a lot. But when I talk to my airline pilot friends, they explained that in real aircraft if you want to get a 1.7G during landing is NOT-THAT-EASY ! 

So hey, this is sim world, nothing could be perfect, maybe it happens due to P3D limitations.

Just enjoy rest of your flights.:)

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Leny Amarante

I have been able to nail a good flare now most of the time , all thanks to the suggestion you guys give me . A million thanks to you guys. However I went back recently to using track ir as I figure a way which I can maintain smooth performance using chase plane + track ir . This has help me a lot for landing and also taxing , having the ability to move my head in different direction while on final has help me a lot , it gives  me a good feel to the aircraft as I descent on final . I have been performing landing rate at 140FPM right on the TDZ , I no longer have that rush sensation when  descending below 50ft . I am now more confident to hand fly the aircraft with out the autopilot just ATT . Beside Track ir giving me the visual needs for landing also the manual help me a lot . As I can admit I really didn't know that with packs off for takeoff with FLEX Temp the aircraft performs better in FLEX mode . Also in turbulent condition for landing I do find that landing mode in Config mode not FULL  I notice the aircraft to maintain more its Final approach speed , that is fallowed by ENG mode selector to IGN, this works amazing in heavy turbulent condition. Last night I did put my skill to the test landing in SKCL (CALI) full manual landing , I manage to keep the aircraft on the centerline despite the heavy gust trying to push the aircraft to the side , rudder help in this situation.  

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Leny Amarante
On ‎4‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 12:12 AM, Ross Emanuel said:

. But it became crazy when it comes to the bus, I always get like -250 fpm with around 1.7-2.0G max VAC during landing(these data was directly recorded via FSUIPC).

This troubles me a lot. But when I talk to my airline pilot friends, they explained that in real aircraft if you want to get a 1.7G during landing is NOT-THAT-EASY ! 

So hey, this is sim world, nothing could be perfect, maybe it happens due to P3D limitations.

Just enjoy rest of your flights.:)

-250 fpm  is not bad at all. It depends on the weather condition fuel , weight . As I have also land 250 ,230,210  landing rate , those were in some heavy wind situation , also on short rwy. I seem to focus more on landing on the TDZ and centerline more than getting a greased landing, if I do that's a extra to me now . I also if the approach doesn't feel right on final , I like to go around , in the past I would force the landing ,  I came to notice that was one of my problems not being able to time my flare correctly because I was focusing on other things right below 50ft . Now I just carry an extra 20 minutes of fuel  just in case of a few miss approach 

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David Murden

Having your Stick set up how FSL surgest might help a lot with inputs when landing.

P3-D-Stick-settings.jpg

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Leny Amarante
12 minutes ago, David Murden said:

Having your Stick set up how FSL surgest might help a lot with inputs when landing.

P3-D-Stick-settings.jpg

Hi David do fslab have any setting to use for those who use FSUIPC? Maybe I overlook this in the manual. My joystick is running as suggested by Simon  with no slope setting in FSUIPC , however would those suggestion by fslab also work for us FSUIPC user ?

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David Murden

Not that I know of. I know lots of people like using FSUIP each to there own but try the above if you can and see.

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Leny Amarante

I wonder if by enabling my joystick controls with in P3d would affect my FSUIPC ? I would do some research  first and see what information I can gather on this matter. 

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Peter Pukhnoy

My understanding is that the recommended settings are simply based on the assumption that you have a noisy joystick and therefore need deadzones, not because it makes the feel more realistic as the real sidestick has no deadzones.

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David Murden
25 minutes ago, Peter Pukhnoy said:

My understanding is that the recommended settings are simply based on the assumption that you have a noisy joystick and therefore need deadzones, not because it makes the feel more realistic as the real sidestick has no deadzones.

The Warthog does not need any dead zone and the setting are for a Warthog.

The setting in the FSL manual for the warthog give different dead zones and sensitivity. Making Ailerons and Elevators behave differently from each other.

Using the setting above, I feel no dead zone at all but that combined with the sensitivity works very well

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Peter Pukhnoy

Then I don't know why they would recommend setting up deadzones. It doesn't make any sense if it's not to compensate for noise.

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David Murden
17 minutes ago, Peter Pukhnoy said:

Then I don't know why they would recommend setting up deadzones. It doesn't make any sense if it's not to compensate for noise.

It just makes the movement with the warthog feel smooth, you don't feel the "dead zone" in practice at all, it feels like there is no dead zone. Yes, cheap controllers need a dead zone so no spikes the warthog with HAL does not need even 1% deadzone. 

The real thing well might not have any dead zone but then again it's not even controlling anything it's just talking to a computer that's controlling everything. We have no idea how that computer smooths out "control" inputs. It just interprets them. It's just a very fancy human interface :) 

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