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Leny Amarante

Tips for landing needed ?

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Leny Amarante

Hi everyone this will be my first post in this forum . I am very much enjoying both A320 and A319 , but I do have a little problem when it comes to flare or the flare technique. Would anyone care to share their flare technique for creating a smooth landing . My landing rate sometimes is even 350 on good days 280 . I just can't seem to get the timing right when to idle thrust then flare , some say idle at 40ft others say 30ft or 20ft . I've also herd others mention about leaving the AT a bit longer then idling upon flare . My problem is when I idle to 40ft and flare the aircraft seem to just fall out of sky. I just wish to get the timing correctly when to flare . Any tips is very much appreciated . 

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David Murden

In a nut shell.

Flare just after you hear 30.

Cut the throttles at 20. 

Always land in the touch down zone. 

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Gerard Beekmans

I struggled with this at first too. I did a lot of autolands in different wind conditions to see the autoland computers' behaviour. It's hard to get a precise number but it appears during autoland the flare starts around 50ft and is gradual. When I try to flare at 50ft I am often too late. I either pulled back on the joystick too slowly or there was a slow response from joystick to FSUIPC or P3D. I tend to flare a little earlier around 60-70ft ish and retard the throttles when it calls out the reminder around 10-20 ft.

It's definitely a finesse, pulling back quickly enough, but not too quickly, at the right altitude. Your speed also has an impact. You aren't always approaching at the same speed. Wind and weight play factors so this is where practice makes perfect. Eventually with time it becomes second nature and you just know what to do and when to do it.

You have to first fail a bunch of times so you learn from that, too. :)

 

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Leny Amarante
25 minutes ago, David Murden said:

In a nut shell.

Flare just after you hear 30.

Cut the throttles at 20. 

Always land in the touch down zone. 

Thank you , will try to cut throttles at 20 , 

13 minutes ago, Gerard Beekmans said:

I struggled with this at first too. I did a lot of autolands in different wind conditions to see the autoland computers' behaviour. It's hard to get a precise number but it appears during autoland the flare starts around 50ft and is gradual. When I try to flare at 50ft I am often too late. I either pulled back on the joystick too slowly or there was a slow response from joystick to FSUIPC or P3D. I tend to flare a little earlier around 60-70ft ish and retard the throttles when it calls out the reminder around 10-20 ft.

It's definitely a finesse, pulling back quickly enough, but not too quickly, at the right altitude. Your speed also has an impact. You aren't always approaching at the same speed. Wind and weight play factors so this is where practice makes perfect. Eventually with time it becomes second nature and you just know what to do and when to do it.

You have to first fail a bunch of times so you learn from that, too. :)

 

Thank you , for the suggestion . I also saw how the autolanding  handles the  flare , I had to adjust the slope setting in FSUIPC so the joystick reacts better when flaring . 

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Gerard Beekmans

Mind sharing your new slope settings? What kind of joystick do you have? I'm still fiddling to get mine "just right". I have the Logitech X-56 H.O.T.A.S. setup.

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Leny Amarante
1 minute ago, Gerard Beekmans said:

Mind sharing your new slope settings? What kind of joystick do you have? I'm still fiddling to get mine "just right". I have the Logitech X-56 H.O.T.A.S. setup.

Sure I am using Saitek X52 joystick , as for my slope setting I have the fallowing : 
Ailierons -13 
Elevators -13

You can also try -10 , I found -13 works best for me as I can handle banking and pitching very easily with minimum inputs on the joystick .

 

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Simon Kelsey

I made a tutorial for that: ;)

 

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Leny Amarante
32 minutes ago, Simon Kelsey said:

I made a tutorial for that: ;)

 

Will take look at it now thank you 

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Leny Amarante

Is there any way I can save a scenario where I would be full config for landing , just to practice the landing several times ? Instead of doing an entire flight 

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Gerard Beekmans

Yep, just save at the point you want to save it. I'm using Prepar3D 4.4 myself and it works beautifully. I also have the registered version of FSUIPC and I set it to autosave every 10 minutes and keep the last hour worth so I can at random go back to a point in time without having to remember ahead of time to do so. Makes for great do-overs when I mess something up and I can go back 10 minutes or whatnot prior to the incident and redo it. That feature alone is worth paying for FSUIPIC. But you can also save the scenario ad-hoc from the main P3D/FSX menu.

The thing to keep in mind is that you should restart the sim fully before loading the saved scenario. If you load without restarting and using a complex aircraft such as this one, it won't work perfectly. I find that the ILS never works right (or at all) when loading "over top" the existing session. Close P3D (or FSX), restart the program, select the scenario from the loading screen and off you go.

 

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Leny Amarante
4 minutes ago, Gerard Beekmans said:

Yep, just save at the point you want to save it. I'm using Prepar3D 4.4 myself and it works beautifully. I also have the registered version of FSUIPC and I set it to autosave every 10 minutes and keep the last hour worth so I can at random go back to a point in time without having to remember ahead of time to do so. Makes for great do-overs when I mess something up and I can go back 10 minutes or whatnot prior to the incident and redo it. That feature alone is worth paying for FSUIPIC. But you can also save the scenario ad-hoc from the main P3D/FSX menu.

The thing to keep in mind is that you should restart the sim fully before loading the saved scenario. If you load without restarting and using a complex aircraft such as this one, it won't work perfectly. I find that the ILS never works right (or at all) when loading "over top" the existing session. Close P3D (or FSX), restart the program, select the scenario from the loading screen and off you go.

 

I will try this , I have a register FSUIPC but I never used the autosave feature before . I would love to have a scenario where I can retry the landing several times . 

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peter kelberg
4 hours ago, mr340 said:

I will try this , I have a register FSUIPC but I never used the autosave feature before . I would love to have a scenario where I can retry the landing several times . 

be  wary of  course  using  auto  saves  might  cause stutters in  your  sim

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Thomas Danielsen

@Simon Kelsey planning to do more tutorial videos?

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David Murden

The problem with Simons video is his viewpoint is very odd no offence Simon.

Here is a good tutorial. 

 

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Norman Blackburn

@mr340

Please change your forum name to be your real name.  Thanks.

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Jordi Adell
12 hours ago, mr340 said:

Hi everyone this will be my first post in this forum . I am very much enjoying both A320 and A319 , but I do have a little problem when it comes to flare or the flare technique. Would anyone care to share their flare technique for creating a smooth landing . My landing rate sometimes is even 350 on good days 280 . I just can't seem to get the timing right when to idle thrust then flare , some say idle at 40ft others say 30ft or 20ft . I've also herd others mention about leaving the AT a bit longer then idling upon flare . My problem is when I idle to 40ft and flare the aircraft seem to just fall out of sky. I just wish to get the timing correctly when to flare . Any tips is very much appreciated . 

A very good instructor of my TR explained that to me:

Some seconds before the flare, you need to be aware of your vertical speed. Depending on it you will initiate the flare:

V/S: 700fpm: Flare at 30'

V/S: 800fpm: Flare at 40'

V/S: 900fpm: Flare at 50'.

 

By the way, forget about the typical flare of a light aircraft. Flare is very very light in such aircraft, and even more in A321, to avoid tail strike.

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Leny Amarante
3 hours ago, peter kelberg said:

be  wary of  course  using  auto  saves  might  cause stutters in  your  sim

Thanks I only used it once and disable it afterwards .

 

48 minutes ago, Norman Blackburn said:

@mr340

Please change your forum name to be your real name.  Thanks.

Done :)

 

18 minutes ago, Jordi Adell said:

A very good instructor of my TR explained that to me:

Some seconds before the flare, you need to be aware of your vertical speed. Depending on it you will initiate the flare:

V/S: 700fpm: Flare at 30'

V/S: 800fpm: Flare at 40'

V/S: 900fpm: Flare at 50'.

I will keep on eye on that . Sometimes what I do is look at my chart and see what my ground speed should be and my GS , most of my approach are done with 140 kts Gnd sometime 120 , which indicates in the chart the V/S should be at 700 fpm when at 140Gnd and 600 fpm when at 120Gnd . Each airport is different but most of the time that's what my ground speed always is at .

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Leny Amarante
1 hour ago, David Murden said:

The problem with Simons video is his viewpoint is very odd no offence Simon.

Here is a good tutorial. 

 

Thanks I did have a look at that . My question when seeing this video the first time , what am I suppose to be looking for at the end of the runway. I've seen many post about using this technique , even with general aviation aircraft . 

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Simon Kelsey
2 minutes ago, Leny Amarante said:

Thanks I did have a look at that . My question when seeing this video the first time , what am I suppose to be looking for at the end of the runway. I've seen many post about using this technique , even with general aviation aircraft . 

You're not looking 'for' anything specifically - looking at the end of the runway achieves two things:

- It reduces the 'ground rush' sensation that tends to lead to early/over flaring

- It allows you to judge the change in pitch attitude and the rate of descent in your peripheral vision.

The change in pitch attitude in the flare is around two to four degrees -- essentially just raise the nose enough to see the glareshield just start to move up relative to the horizon and no more. Then hold that pitch attitude as you close the thrust levers.

It is more important to focus on executing the correct technique consistently and not worry if the landings are slightly firm - the important thing is that you are in the right place at the right speed and using the correct technique as per the flying manual.

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Leny Amarante
2 minutes ago, Simon Kelsey said:

You're not looking 'for' anything specifically - looking at the end of the runway achieves two things:

- It reduces the 'ground rush' sensation that tends to lead to early/over flaring

- It allows you to judge the change in pitch attitude and the rate of descent in your peripheral vision.

The change in pitch attitude in the flare is around two to four degrees -- essentially just raise the nose enough to see the glareshield just start to move up relative to the horizon and no more. Then hold that pitch attitude as you close the thrust levers.

It is more important to focus on executing the correct technique consistently and not worry if the landings are slightly firm - the important thing is that you are in the right place at the right speed and using the correct technique as per the flying manual.

Okay I did see that , when trying to land and looking at the end of the runway . I was able to see as the runway appears to be getting wider as I approach the final descend upon touchdown. I will try to setup a scenario where I can practice multiple times my landing with every suggestion I can get from you guys . Thank you very much .    

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Simon Kelsey
1 hour ago, Leny Amarante said:

Sometimes what I do is look at my chart and see what my ground speed should be and my GS , most of my approach are done with 140 kts Gnd sometime 120 , which indicates in the chart the V/S should be at 700 fpm when at 140Gnd and 600 fpm when at 120Gnd . Each airport is different but most of the time that's what my ground speed always is at .

As an additional rule of thumb - for a standard three degree glidepath, multiply your groundspeed by 5 for an approximate rate of descent (divide by two, add a zero if like me you don't know your 140 times table!)

4 hours ago, Thomas Danielsen said:

@Simon Kelsey planning to do more tutorial videos?

I have a few ideas in my mind, it's just finding the time to do it! I'll see what I can do -- anything in particular you'd like to see?

12 hours ago, Gerard Beekmans said:

I struggled with this at first too. I did a lot of autolands in different wind conditions to see the autoland computers' behaviour. It's hard to get a precise number but it appears during autoland the flare starts around 50ft and is gradual. When I try to flare at 50ft I am often too late. I either pulled back on the joystick too slowly or there was a slow response from joystick to FSUIPC or P3D. I tend to flare a little earlier around 60-70ft ish and retard the throttles when it calls out the reminder around 10-20 ft.

Be a little bit careful with this - what I suspect you are actually doing is a sort of 'two stage' flare where you are breaking the descent a little very early, then bringing the power back and flaring again at low level.

The problem with this is that it will tend to extend the landing distance as the autothrust increases thrust to maintain the approach speed. If you are still managing to put it down in the TDZ then you are almost certainly 'ducking under' the glidepath in the final stages of the approach to compensate for the fact that you are shallowing the rate of descent early which may have obstacle clearance implications -- in any event it is not a good habit to get in to!

Where are you looking as you come through 150ft or so? I would suggest shifting your gaze if not to the very end of the runway at that stage then at least to a point around two thirds of the way down - I suspect what is happening is that you are getting a degree of 'ground rush' which subsequently is leading you to start flaring early (as you go - 'oh gosh the ground's coming up awfully quickly!').

The aft stick movement required to initiate the flare should be positive and prompt but still smooth and remember you will need to hold that backpressure to maintain the attitude. I confess I am always extremely sceptical about applying 'slopes' to control inputs -- IMO you are better off with proper linear control deflection otherwise you will get increasingly odd effects the more input you put in, either getting a sudden rush of input once you get past a certain point or, in the opposite direction the controls suddenly become much less effective. The FBW in the A320-X is very well-tuned and with a standard joystick I cannot really see why one would need to start messing around with the control throw, to be entirely honest.

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Leny Amarante
51 minutes ago, Simon Kelsey said:

 

Where are you looking as you come through 150ft or so? I would suggest shifting your gaze if not to the very end of the runway at that stage then at least to a point around two thirds of the way down - I suspect what is happening is that you are getting a degree of 'ground rush' which subsequently is leading you to start flaring early (as you go - 'oh gosh the ground's coming up awfully quickly!').

 

That is exactly my experience "oh gosh the ground's coming up awfully quickly .Then I tend to flare early , I will try your suggestion . 

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Jordi Adell
2 hours ago, Leny Amarante said:

Thanks I only used it once and disable it afterwards .

 

Done :)

 

I will keep on eye on that . Sometimes what I do is look at my chart and see what my ground speed should be and my GS , most of my approach are done with 140 kts Gnd sometime 120 , which indicates in the chart the V/S should be at 700 fpm when at 140Gnd and 600 fpm when at 120Gnd . Each airport is different but most of the time that's what my ground speed always is at .

 

About checking the ground speed, I'd say that you don't need to do that. But it's just a guess. I think that if the destination performance is set in the box, especially the wind, we have a nice feature known as Ground Speed Mini, which will compensate the target IAS (Vapp) for the wind component (hwd, twd).

" see what my ground speed should be and my GS": Mmm, still, I guess you keep thinking in flying a light aircraft. If your aircraft is fully config for landing, and speed is in Vapp and G/S is captured, forget about the Ground Speed.

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Gerard Beekmans
1 hour ago, Simon Kelsey said:

Be a little bit careful with this - what I suspect you are actually doing is a sort of 'two stage' flare where you are breaking the descent a little very early, then bringing the power back and flaring again at low level.

The problem with this is that it will tend to extend the landing distance as the autothrust increases thrust to maintain the approach speed. If you are still managing to put it down in the TDZ then you are almost certainly 'ducking under' the glidepath in the final stages of the approach to compensate for the fact that you are shallowing the rate of descent early which may have obstacle clearance implications -- in any event it is not a good habit to get in to!

Where are you looking as you come through 150ft or so? I would suggest shifting your gaze if not to the very end of the runway at that stage then at least to a point around two thirds of the way down - I suspect what is happening is that you are getting a degree of 'ground rush' which subsequently is leading you to start flaring early (as you go - 'oh gosh the ground's coming up awfully quickly!').

The aft stick movement required to initiate the flare should be positive and prompt but still smooth and remember you will need to hold that backpressure to maintain the attitude. I confess I am always extremely sceptical about applying 'slopes' to control inputs -- IMO you are better off with proper linear control deflection otherwise you will get increasingly odd effects the more input you put in, either getting a sudden rush of input once you get past a certain point or, in the opposite direction the controls suddenly become much less effective. The FBW in the A320-X is very well-tuned and with a standard joystick I cannot really see why one would need to start messing around with the control throw, to be entirely honest.

Thanks for your feedback, Simon. What's going wrong on my end isn't so much ground rush. To a smaller degree that's been trained out of me during private pilot license training though it's different in this aircraft and in a sim obviously compared to a slow 70kt approach in a C172.

When I previously pull back at 30ft, i see the nose come up a bit and i do hold back pressure. The speed doesn't bleed off much at all and i touch down still in the -600 ft/min range. I'm trying to get a bit smoother in the -200 to -300 range.

Last flight i stayed in autoland until 100R then disconnected APs. I pulled back stick at 50R after having watched your videos that explained flare law and waited for flare to be announced on the FMA to make sure I'm in flare law/mode. Closed throttles at around 20 when it reminded me to and... Long landing. I floated a while until i pushed nose slightly forward to touchdown finally before running out of runway.

Thats is progress at least. It suggests to me that I flared too soon or I've not been pulling back the stick firmly enough in the small window of time we have available to get this done in.

Practice makes perfect, right.

 

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Victor Buchkov

There. I made you a quick tutorial. I hope it will help.

 

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Leny Amarante
20 minutes ago, Victor Buchkov said:

There. I made you a quick tutorial. I hope it will help.

 

Wawo :O excellent landing . May I ask where did you purchase the sidestick ? Its identical to the real one.  Also I assumed you don't have any slope setting in FSUIPC ?As Simon mention above messing around with slope is not such a good idea . So I reverted mines to it normal state . I assumed your setting its at normal state also ? Thanks for the video  by the way . 

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Victor Buchkov
Just now, Leny Amarante said:

Wawo :O excellent landing . May I ask where did you purchase the sidestick ? Its identical to the real one.  Also I assumed you don't have any slope setting in FSUIPC ?As Simon mention above messing around with slope is not such a good idea . So I reverted mines to it normal state . I assumed your setting its at normal state also ?

Thank you. Every landing could have been better :)

I bought it from "Vier-Im-Pott". As a platform i use the cheap Logitech 3D Extreme but with changed potentiometers and springs/ dampers. As i'm current with the real aircraft, i had to completely "re-paint" my joystick response slope using an external software out of FSUIPC. It's called "JoystickCurves". That way it resembles to a maximum degree the real one but it still needs corrections from FSL's part. Basically, if you don't look to replicate a specific feel, leave it with default slopes as that is what developers assume should be used.

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Leny Amarante
30 minutes ago, Victor Buchkov said:

Thank you. Every landing could have been better :)

I bought it from "Vier-Im-Pott". As a platform i use the cheap Logitech 3D Extreme but with changed potentiometers and springs/ dampers. As i'm current with the real aircraft, i had to completely "re-paint" my joystick response slope using an external software out of FSUIPC. It's called "JoystickCurves". That way it resembles to a maximum degree the real one but it still needs corrections from FSL's part. Basically, if you don't look to replicate a specific feel, leave it with default slopes as that is what developers assume should be used.

Its very expensive I just google it .  Good news guys , I just did a very nice flare manage 173 landing rate at a not so big airport . My home base airport TIST from Tropical Sim . For practicing a landing this airport doesn't have the longest rwy  possible . But I manage to land on the TDZ I did get that ground rush sensation , its like you are trying to hold your breath while under water funny I know . That was my initial feeling specially knowing this airport doesn't have the longest runway like many other airports . Here at TIST you either land on the TDZ or go around if you are coming in 140knots with some 10 knots gust. All this was achieve with my FSUIPC Slope back to normal state . Thanks Simon and others who care to share some tips for landing .  

Also Victor I will save your video to look at it from times to time . I don't know about you guys , but for me when switching to other aircraft to fly such as B777,747 or 737 when coming back to fly the FSLAB A320 I tend to mix up the landing technique for flare. That's why I posted for some help and I can always used these tips as a reminder when coming back to fly the A320 or A319 . Thank you so very much.  

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Thomas Danielsen

@Simon Kelsey Well, nothing in particular. I just noticed in your tutorials and your posts here in the forum that you seem to have quite an extensive technical knowledge along with some presentational skills.

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Stu Antonio
3 hours ago, Victor Buchkov said:

Thank you. Every landing could have been better :)

I bought it from "Vier-Im-Pott". As a platform i use the cheap Logitech 3D Extreme but with changed potentiometers and springs/ dampers. As i'm current with the real aircraft, i had to completely "re-paint" my joystick response slope using an external software out of FSUIPC. It's called "JoystickCurves". That way it resembles to a maximum degree the real one but it still needs corrections from FSL's part. Basically, if you don't look to replicate a specific feel, leave it with default slopes as that is what developers assume should be used.

Would you be willing to share how you did all of this? Tweaking the 3D Pro (my current controller as well), setting up the curves etc...? I really like my 3D Pro but I struggle a little with the right sensitivity/slope-setup via FSUIPS, testing new combinations every time I fly. You seem to be knowing what you‘re doing....;) 

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Jay Collie

Hi Leny,

Glad you are getting your landing technique down in the Airbus. I fly the 320/321 in real world and the same technique I use in the real world works great in the FSL Airbus. A few things to keep in mind. There is no "One size fits all" as each approach has varying conditions. I think one thing to keep in mind that a lot of people forget is you always have to keep flying the airplane even in the flare. You are always making corrections with the side stick. I usually leave the power in until about 20 feet and I start my flare at that point. However, you can't leave it there. You still have 20 feet to go and you want to be in the touchdown zone. You still have to make movements with the stick to work those 20 feet down. If you don't, you will start floating and or worse, run out of energy. We have all been there. This is especially true when you are landing in gusty crosswinds. Most of us land flaps 3 and usually add a speed margin in this case. In crosswinds most pilots, especially new folks, tend to flare high .With the high flare, excess speed, aileron input into the wind and rudder to keep the nose straight, it is vitally important that you keep working the stick to  make it all work. The second thing is remember it's usually small inputs in the airbus, including those used in the flare. My airline has a crosswind limit, including gusts of 38 knots. One of my pet peeves about the real bus is that there seems to always be a lag in the side stick in gusty conditions. I find it to be worse in roll than pitch. There have been a few times (Last week coming into 31L at JFK) where you are almost at the stops with the side stick during an approach in gusty crosswind conditions. The last point I want to make is not all landings can and should be smooth. The CRJ-200 was the first jet I ever got typed in and it was fast during the approach because it has no leading edge devices. We used to land it on runway 26 in KPHL which was only 5000Ft. My instructor said you have three things to get your stopped. Brakes, ground lift dump devices (spoilers) and thrust reverse. However, remember, NONE of these work until the airplane is on the ground. A few airports my airline takes the bus....LGA, DCA, BUR...have short runways. Add some snow with an RCAM (https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/talpa/media/TALPA-Pilot-RCAM.pdf) of 2 or 3 and it's no time to play around, especially in a 321. You pull the power, round out, accept no float and "Plant it if you have to". The autobrakes go to work. You get busy with the thrust reverse and you get the airplane stopped. The main thing is practice. I got typed in the airbus in Jan of 2015, upgraded to Captain in 2017 and I still get humbled with a landing every other trip or two. I call it a love hate relationship. Hope this helps a little. 

Jay

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Stu Antonio

So what‘s a good/common/desirable landing rate? I read anything from „under 100 fpm“ to „betw. 50 and 150 fpm“ to „everything under 600 fpm“. 

I know it‘s more a matter of G-forces but we can‘t really measure those in P3D (projectfly‘s system is pretty bugged).... 

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Jay Collie

Stu,

That's a very good question and one I don't have the answer to. We don't have landing rate monitors in the real airplane. I know most virtual airlines set a hard limit of -600fpm. I know some of my friends at other airlines on the 737-800 and 900 have pitch rate monitors so after landing they can see what their pitch attitude was upon touchdown. It's my understanding that this gives them an idea of how much clearance they had in relation to a tailstrike. I just did a search to see if any of our manuals target a certain FPM on landing. The only spot I saw was our "Overweight landing" checklist. It says Max VS at touchdown 360FT/min. But remember this is an overweight landing. With that being said, it still leaves your original questions unanswered!

Jay

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Stu Antonio
1 hour ago, Jay Collie said:

Stu,

That's a very good question and one I don't have the answer to. We don't have landing rate monitors in the real airplane. I know most virtual airlines set a hard limit of -600fpm. I know some of my friends at other airlines on the 737-800 and 900 have pitch rate monitors so after landing they can see what their pitch attitude was upon touchdown. It's my understanding that this gives them an idea of how much clearance they had in relation to a tailstrike. I just did a search to see if any of our manuals target a certain FPM on landing. The only spot I saw was our "Overweight landing" checklist. It says Max VS at touchdown 360FT/min. But remember this is an overweight landing. With that being said, it still leaves your original questions unanswered!

Jay

Interesting. I once found a table of values that list what constitute „hard landings“ and „severe hard landing“, can‘t find it at the moment, but they always show g-force loads anyway, not fps. I think it was something like 2.6G is a hard landing.... 

Also found this a while ago, but maybe that‘s just something for the tech-team, not the pilots. Again, g-loads:

 

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Victor Buchkov
On 4/6/2019 at 8:39 PM, Stu Antonio said:

Would you be willing to share how you did all of this? Tweaking the 3D Pro (my current controller as well), setting up the curves etc...? I really like my 3D Pro but I struggle a little with the right sensitivity/slope-setup via FSUIPS, testing new combinations every time I fly. You seem to be knowing what you‘re doing....;) 

I would most gladly! But it would also make me criticizing FSL's flight control system and i'm not sure if this would be an appropriate moment as we expect an update that will potentially fix it.

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Stu Antonio
12 minutes ago, Victor Buchkov said:

I would most gladly! But it would also make me criticizing FSL's flight control system and i'm not sure if this would be an appropriate moment as we expect an update that will potentially fix it.

Totally understandable :) I‘m also looking forward to the new flight model and what improvements  it might bring.... we‘ll see. 

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Alexandre Kubatko
32 minutes ago, Victor Buchkov said:

I would most gladly! But it would also make me criticizing FSL's flight control system and i'm not sure if this would be an appropriate moment as we expect an update that will potentially fix it.

Hey Victor,

You're saying that you don't want to criticize, but I suggest you do it ! The reason is that FSLabs actually listen to customers if you show them that something is wrong ; you don't risk anything except them fixing it or them explainaing you why it's already correctly modeled. I encourage to do so especially when the thing that you think is wrong is not visual (like the PFD for instance : we, non-pilots, can compare the PFD to videos and photos and tell if something's off), but when it's an internal system.

In this particular case, I think you're talking about getting the feel of the real sidestick ? I would say then that it's a limitation of the hardware we got on the market. I personally fly with no null zones whatsoever because I don't see the interest in having one as the real ones don't. My guess is the stiffness comes from the sidestick itself, not a FBW delay, hence no need to reproduce it. Hardware manifacturers are the culprit for me.

But I'm very tired and maybe I misunderstood your issue !

Alex.

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Simon Kelsey
6 hours ago, Stu Antonio said:

So what‘s a good/common/desirable landing rate? I read anything from „under 100 fpm“ to „betw. 50 and 150 fpm“ to „everything under 600 fpm“. 

I know it‘s more a matter of G-forces but we can‘t really measure those in P3D (projectfly‘s system is pretty bugged).... 

Short answer: nobody really knows or cares. Every so-called 'landing rate' software I have ever encountered regularly spews out nonsense so I have little faith in the data in the first place. However, from a certification point of view the aircraft is certified to 10 ft/sec at MLW (600fpm) and 6ft/sec at MTOW (360fpm).

But you don't really need a calculator to tell you whether you have buried it or not, do you? ;)

 

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Stu Antonio
3 minutes ago, Simon Kelsey said:

But you don't really need a calculator to tell you whether you have buried it or not, do you? ;)

Haha, very true :) But still, there is a certain excitement in measuring your own performance on landings and since we can‘t feel it, we need some other form of measurement or analysis.  

However, there are some real pilot forums where younger pilots seek help to improve their landings and they do toss around numbers. 

So I would not say that nobody cares, I do care or am at least interested in knowing how I did on my flights/landings, thats part of the excitement. Replays are useless in P3D so a LRM is all I have for now. 

But FSL built in some kind of analysis page in the updated mcdu, didn‘t you? 

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Simon Kelsey
1 hour ago, Stu Antonio said:

So I would not say that nobody cares, I do care or am at least interested in knowing how I did on my flights/landings, thats part of the excitement. Replays are useless in P3D so a LRM is all I have for now. 

But FSL built in some kind of analysis page in the updated mcdu, didn‘t you? 

Indeed we have though there are quite a few parameters on there that I would consider a lot more important than V/S at touchdown in terms of qualifying a "good" landing, which is my main issue with the focus on this particular parameter.

Nobody ever seems to ask "what pitch attitude at touchdown would constitute a good landing" or "what speed should I have at touchdown" or "where on the runway would a good landing be" - just "what should the V/S be?" -- and that's where I would suggest that the metric you are using to define a 'good landing' is not necessarily the right one, and certainly not in isolation. 

The reason I say nobody really knows is because in real life nobody is looking at the VSI at the moment of touchdown (even if you could necessarily rely on it to provide an accurate reading at that particular instant given the latency in the indication and the instrument errors associated with manoeuvring etc) and real world ACMS systems generally report G if you were to pull up a report subsequently (which is even more hit and miss in FSX/P3D than V/S around touchdown due to the vagaries of the P3D suspension model).

The perception of the firmness of the landing is dependent on the time period over which whatever V/S you have at the moment the wheels hit the tarmac is reduced to 0, i.e. acceleration (G). This is entirely a function of the suspension system.

To take it to the extreme - in theory you could touchdown at 750fpm with no flare at all but if you have a good enough suspension/dampers etc then you could feel barely anything at all.

This is why if you are looking to measure the quality of your landings the better questions to ask yourself are:

- Did I touch down on the centerline? 

- Did I maintain the centreline/directional control after touchdown if there was a significant crosswind?

- Did I touch down on the point I was aiming to touch down on? Did I touch down in the touchdown zone?

- Was my airspeed stable at VApp at the commencement of the flare? 

- What was my pitch attitude at touchdown? How does that compare to a) the maximum (tailstrike) pitch attitude and b) the approach attitude (i.e. what was the pitch change in the flare and how does that compare to what Airbus recommend)?

- Did I fly the nosewheel down gently but without delay? 

- Was the landing reasonably comfortable (i.e. did I perceive that I buried it or did it feel like a smooth touchdown given the visible and audible feedback in the sim?) If not then perhaps the specific V/S figure might be worth looking at to see whether you were near a hard landing check (say 600fpm if you are below MLW) but given the variability of the quality of the data one has to take it with a pinch of salt anyway - hence why I think the seat of the pants test is really the best way (and the A320X touchdown effects are really good at giving you that sense of when you've really crunched it in!).

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Martin Tornberg

Aim for something cheap. 

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Stu Antonio
8 hours ago, Simon Kelsey said:

Indeed we have though there are quite a few parameters on there that I would consider a lot more important than V/S at touchdown in terms of qualifying a "good" landing, which is my main issue with the focus on this particular parameter.

Nobody ever seems to ask "what pitch attitude at touchdown would constitute a good landing" or "what speed should I have at touchdown" or "where on the runway would a good landing be" - just "what should the V/S be?" -- and that's where I would suggest that the metric you are using to define a 'good landing' is not necessarily the right one, and certainly not in isolation. 

The reason I say nobody really knows is because in real life nobody is looking at the VSI at the moment of touchdown (even if you could necessarily rely on it to provide an accurate reading at that particular instant given the latency in the indication and the instrument errors associated with manoeuvring etc) and real world ACMS systems generally report G if you were to pull up a report subsequently (which is even more hit and miss in FSX/P3D than V/S around touchdown due to the vagaries of the P3D suspension model).

The perception of the firmness of the landing is dependent on the time period over which whatever V/S you have at the moment the wheels hit the tarmac is reduced to 0, i.e. acceleration (G). This is entirely a function of the suspension system.

To take it to the extreme - in theory you could touchdown at 750fpm with no flare at all but if you have a good enough suspension/dampers etc then you could feel barely anything at all.

This is why if you are looking to measure the quality of your landings the better questions to ask yourself are:

- Did I touch down on the centerline? 

- Did I maintain the centreline/directional control after touchdown if there was a significant crosswind?

- Did I touch down on the point I was aiming to touch down on? Did I touch down in the touchdown zone?

- Was my airspeed stable at VApp at the commencement of the flare? 

- What was my pitch attitude at touchdown? How does that compare to a) the maximum (tailstrike) pitch attitude and b) the approach attitude (i.e. what was the pitch change in the flare and how does that compare to what Airbus recommend)?

- Did I fly the nosewheel down gently but without delay? 

- Was the landing reasonably comfortable (i.e. did I perceive that I buried it or did it feel like a smooth touchdown given the visible and audible feedback in the sim?) If not then perhaps the specific V/S figure might be worth looking at to see whether you were near a hard landing check (say 600fpm if you are below MLW) but given the variability of the quality of the data one has to take it with a pinch of salt anyway - hence why I think the seat of the pants test is really the best way (and the A320X touchdown effects are really good at giving you that sense of when you've really crunched it in!).

Thanks for the interesting info. And it's true, asking a A320 pilot buddy of mine what his landing rates usually are, he just replied he has no idea. :)

But I think it would be great to have a tool to check all the parameters you mentioned. Centerline, T/D-zone, pitcht, G-load etc.... and give out a "rating" of some sort. 
Projectfly does this already with some of the parameters, and since it also records the point of touchdown, I usually check with google maps where exactly I sat it down... 

I guess it's a little bit like with the FPS when it comes to performance of the sim. Don't focus too much on the numbers, just see how the overall performance is and forget the counter...  :)

 

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George Westwell
On 4/6/2019 at 2:09 AM, Leny Amarante said:

Is there any way I can save a scenario where I would be full config for landing , just to practice the landing several times ? Instead of doing an entire flight 

I would suggest you try FSiPanel - you can position and configure the aircraft - and then repeat landings at will.

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Leny Amarante
21 hours ago, Jay Collie said:

Hi Leny,

Glad you are getting your landing technique down in the Airbus. I fly the 320/321 in real world and the same technique I use in the real world works great in the FSL Airbus. A few things to keep in mind. There is no "One size fits all" as each approach has varying conditions. I think one thing to keep in mind that a lot of people forget is you always have to keep flying the airplane even in the flare. You are always making corrections with the side stick. I usually leave the power in until about 20 feet and I start my flare at that point. However, you can't leave it there. You still have 20 feet to go and you want to be in the touchdown zone. You still have to make movements with the stick to work those 20 feet down. If you don't, you will start floating and or worse, run out of energy. We have all been there. This is especially true when you are landing in gusty crosswinds. Most of us land flaps 3 and usually add a speed margin in this case. In crosswinds most pilots, especially new folks, tend to flare high .With the high flare, excess speed, aileron input into the wind and rudder to keep the nose straight, it is vitally important that you keep working the stick to  make it all work. The second thing is remember it's usually small inputs in the airbus, including those used in the flare. My airline has a crosswind limit, including gusts of 38 knots. One of my pet peeves about the real bus is that there seems to always be a lag in the side stick in gusty conditions. I find it to be worse in roll than pitch. There have been a few times (Last week coming into 31L at JFK) where you are almost at the stops with the side stick during an approach in gusty crosswind conditions. The last point I want to make is not all landings can and should be smooth. The CRJ-200 was the first jet I ever got typed in and it was fast during the approach because it has no leading edge devices. We used to land it on runway 26 in KPHL which was only 5000Ft. My instructor said you have three things to get your stopped. Brakes, ground lift dump devices (spoilers) and thrust reverse. However, remember, NONE of these work until the airplane is on the ground. A few airports my airline takes the bus....LGA, DCA, BUR...have short runways. Add some snow with an RCAM (https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/talpa/media/TALPA-Pilot-RCAM.pdf) of 2 or 3 and it's no time to play around, especially in a 321. You pull the power, round out, accept no float and "Plant it if you have to". The autobrakes go to work. You get busy with the thrust reverse and you get the airplane stopped. The main thing is practice. I got typed in the airbus in Jan of 2015, upgraded to Captain in 2017 and I still get humbled with a landing every other trip or two. I call it a love hate relationship. Hope this helps a little. 

Jay

Wawo thank you for your advice , this clears up a lot of thing for me. I'm always trying to make a good flare where the aircraft would kiss the ground as other might say. But I really didn't realize that the priority in the real world is trying to land on the TDZ on the centerline  having a stable approach . I did see an example of what you are describing . I was landing on KIDA with gust up to 10 knots , I know that might not be much , but I found that disconnecting the autopilot early gives me a great feel of the controls and the aircraft , disconnecting late like about 100 ft is where the trouble start for me as I don't have any actual feel to my controls inputs and how fast it reacts . When I disconnect early about 500ft I find myself to be more stable on the approach . That was my experience when landing in KIDA , I was having a hard time to keep the aircraft lineup , but making small adjustment on my sidestick and rudder I manage to land with a landing rate of 172.However I didn't land right on the TDZ just a little further ahead. I really appreciate these helpful tips , it really changes the way I feel and the way I see the landing technique. My experience so far is disconnecting the autopilot a bit early , really helps me a lot . Most of the time I manage a very smooth stable approach so far so good. 

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