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ETOPS


Aaron Ortega

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ETOPS is more of a regulatory framework than a whole series of things that go in to the MCDU. Having said that we receive a flight plan that indicates the ETOPS entry point at which we enter in to an ETOPS segment (i.e. the point at which we go beyond 1 hours flight time, either OEI, depressurised or OEI and depressurised) It also indicates the ETOPS exit points and these two point will be placed on the FIX INFO page and they should display accordingly on the Navigation Display. 

ETOPS equi-time points will also be provided on the flight plan. All these waypoints will provided in the form of a LAT/LONG and they simply provide situational awareness to flight crew for the purposes of confirming all systems are normal prior to straying too far from a usable aerodrome. Obviously, should a systems failure occur we with then look at out company procedures to determine what to do next but in the case of an engine failure and/or an engine out condition we are then required to land at the nearest usable aerodrome. 

It's a difficult thing to provide the LATs and LONGs for the above mentioned waypoints because they are ultimately computer generated by our flight planning team and take in to account the winds at the relevant worst case flight level.

Hope that helps. 

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  • 2 years later...
Aaron Ortega

Hi:

Now that the SL have been released, can someone do a nice video on how to set ETOPS up in the FMGS?

I would still like to follow along to someone doing it.

Thank you.

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David Spaulding

There really isn’t much you can do, ATM. Features missing like offsets, ETPs, time points, RTA all can be utilized for ETOPS flight. You can denote the ETOPS boundaries on the NDs by using the FIX INFO. However depending on what ETOPS rule you’re flying under(180 minutes, 120 minutes, 60 minutes), that will differ as well and mainly changes how many alternate airports are listed for ETOPS flight. You would find this on the release. You also therefore need to determine then the distance at which the airframe is legal to fly away from a suitable airport over water. For example, my operator has airframes that are equipped for up either the non-over water (50, 100, 162nm depends on the latitude of flight) or extended non-over water of 400nm, or ETOPS. The ETOPS airplanes are the ones that have the necessary survival equipment, optional fire suppression features, and certified by maintenance through rigorous checks and monitoring denoted in the AML. We operated our A321s on the 180 minutes, and use 400nm to determine our ETOPS airspace from our alternates since ETOPS airplanes still have the equipment available for the extended non-overwater operation.

Edit: Not sure why I said that last sentence. It’s actually determined by flying single-engine for 60 minutes at .78M or 320KIAS. Therefore different types have different distances for ETOPS entry and exit points.

Hope this helps.


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Camille MOUCHEL

Shouldn’t the ETP menu in mcdu calculates the entry, exit and ETP ?

I know that i saw it on the nD of a a319 of a company base in Vagar, Atlantic something


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David Spaulding
Shouldn’t the ETP menu in mcdu calculates the entry, exit and ETP ?

I know that i saw it on the nD of a a319 of a company base in Vagar, Atlantic something


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No, it doesn’t calculate entry and exit. It does calculate ETP, however by default it calculates it for the entire flight plan, NOT for ETOPS or nearest suitable in ETOPS. Hence why it would be nice to have this working.


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Camille MOUCHEL
6 minutes ago, David Spaulding said:

 


No, it doesn’t calculate entry and exit. It does calculate ETP, however by default it calculates it for the entire flight plan, NOT for ETOPS or nearest suitable in ETOPS. Hence why it would be nice to have this working.


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I see, you can still use fix page for entry/Exit point ?

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Koen Meier
Just now, Camille MOUCHEL said:

I see, you can still use fix page for entry/Exit point ?

For all three points actually if you have the coordinates

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David Spaulding

I think so, if you have coordinates. It all depends on what info the release has and how it’s presented. Sim brief has many different formats, so it really depends.


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David Spaulding
I see, you can still use fix page for entry/Exit point ?


Yes, by inputting your nearest suitables along your route in FIX INFO, and input the range of the 60 minutes single-engine at .78 or 320KIAS = 400nm for the radius. And bingo you have your entry and exit points.


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Camille MOUCHEL

whats the ETOPS certified for A32X ? is it capable of ETOPS180 ?

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David Spaulding

Yep. At least for the sharks it is. Not sure if someone else knows for WTF here?

Edit: Actually that doesn’t really matter, because ETOPS is mainly certified by reliability of engines, and WTF and sharks have the same IAEs or CFMs on them. So…

I think it’s something like 1 inflight shutdown for every 50k flight hours to make the 180 ETOPS?


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Camille MOUCHEL
14 minutes ago, David Spaulding said:

Yep. At least for the sharks it is. Not sure if someone else knows for WTF here?

Edit: Actually that doesn’t really matter, because ETOPS is mainly certified by reliability of engines, and WTF and sharks have the same IAEs or CFMs on them. So…


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yes butwhat  is the ETOPS certification for the A32X WTF/SL ?

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David Spaulding
yes butwhat  is the ETOPS certification for the A32X WTF/SL ?

whats the ETOPS certified for A32X ? is it capable of ETOPS180 ?


You answered it.

Edit: oh I think I understand what you’re asking now. I’m not sure if it’s capable of 200 or higher. That’s a good question. Maybe the XLR? Not sure about our variants.


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Ocean Hoevet

It's ETOPS 180 since Alaska and American both operate or operated the non NEO 320/321 from the US mainland to Hawaii.

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Alexander Polcher
14 hours ago, Camille MOUCHEL said:

whats the ETOPS certified for A32X ? is it capable of ETOPS180 ?

In general, the Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) gives an information about the general capabilty of the aircraft.

For example: TCDS EASA.A.064

ETOPS1.PNG.7d56a05798ef2f1b8444ff4e57cb594c.PNG

ETOPS2.PNG.73f596331f02277acaef16ca70d3b2a1.PNG

All Airbus A320FAM are in general capable of conducting ETOPS 180min flights as far as I know, nevertheless, aircraft have to be maintained, equipped and the operator has to be approved for such procedures.

 

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Aaron Ortega

Fascinating.  I love these conversations.

Thank you everyone for all the cool data.  I'll still keep my fingers crossed for a nice (youtube) video demonstrating best practice(s) with the more restrictive FMGS in the FSLabs airplanes.

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David Spaulding
Fascinating.  I love these conversations.
Thank you everyone for all the cool data.  I'll still keep my fingers crossed for a nice (youtube) video demonstrating best practice(s) with the more restrictive FMGS in the FSLabs airplanes.


I just recorded a simple video and luck be it, my service just went down. I leave for work tomorrow, so I doubt it will be uploaded by then. Maybe Thursday?


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Aaron Ortega
17 hours ago, David Spaulding said:

 


I just recorded a simple video and luck be it, my service just went down. I leave for work tomorrow, so I doubt it will be uploaded by then. Maybe Thursday?


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You’re not going to skip work to finish?  Just playing.

Thanks for doing that!  I may have led you down a wrong path though because such video may result in countless amounts of follow-up questions. 

Look forward.  Enjoy work.  Maybe we’ll end up speaking. 

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David Spaulding
You’re not going to skip work to finish?  Just playing.
Thanks for doing that!  I may have led you down a wrong path though because such video may result in countless amounts of follow-up questions. 
Look forward.  Enjoy work.  Maybe we’ll end up speaking. 


Hogwash. Questions are always welcome. I’ll link it as soon as it’s on YouTube.


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Kirk Christie

Note that ETOPS isn't just over water, you need to fly ETOPS when more then 60mins from a suitable diversion airport, Perth to Brisbane is completely over land and requires ETOPS. Also that ETOPS has been replaced by EDTO because it relates to all aircraft not just twins.

I used pilot way points on my recent Perth Melbourne Flight.

EET - EDTO Entry

ETP - Equi time point

EXP - EDTO exit

received_2557090847921051.jpeg.f9ee5601147164d5398f94b31b3f9594.jpeg

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Aaron Ortega
On 5/27/2021 at 11:08 AM, David Spaulding said:

Here it is, as promised.  Be gentle.

 

 

Thank you!  Look forward to watching.

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Aaron Ortega
On 5/27/2021 at 11:08 AM, David Spaulding said:

Here it is, as promised.  Be gentle.

 

 

This was a great valuable watch.  I appreciate your insight - especially discussion of items outside of the FMGS.  Feel free to upload more tutorials.  =:-)

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David Spaulding
This was a great valuable watch.  I appreciate your insight - especially discussion of items outside of the FMGS.  Feel free to upload more tutorials.  =:-)

Thank you, Aaron. I’ll think about that. I’m not that much of a speaker/presenter, but I am glad it helped you and possibly more simmers in the future.


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Markus Burkhard
9 hours ago, David Spaulding said:

Thank you, Aaron. I’ll think about that. I’m not that much of a speaker/presenter, but I am glad it helped you and possibly more simmers in the future.

Mankind is still capable of writing documents in the form of guides and tutorials, perfect for everyone who does not want to talk and present on a video :) 

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David Spaulding
Mankind is still capable of writing documents in the form of guides and tutorials, perfect for everyone who does not want to talk and present on a video  

That’s true, Markus. However, I’d hate to make something redundant and already carefully authored by FSL anyways. I’m not really sure what “further to the cause” I can do?

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Markus Burkhard
1 hour ago, David Spaulding said:


That’s true, Markus. However, I’d hate to make something redundant and already carefully authored by FSL anyways. I’m not really sure what “further to the cause” I can do?

Oh I was simply referring to any insights you may want to give about how things are done in real daily operations, like the topic of ETOPS flying which we do not cover in our documentation. 

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Aaron Ortega
5 hours ago, David Spaulding said:


That’s true, Markus. However, I’d hate to make something redundant and already carefully authored by FSL anyways. I’m not really sure what “further to the cause” I can do?

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Do an ETOPS divert!  LOL...told you I lead you down the wrong path.

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David Spaulding
Oh I was simply referring to any insights you may want to give about how things are done in real daily operations, like the topic of ETOPS flying which we do not cover in our documentation. 

Do an ETOPS divert!  LOL...told you I lead you down the wrong path.


Oh, okay. Yeah I can do that. Good idea. Also deviations for weather too.


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Aaron Ortega
8 hours ago, David Spaulding said:

 

 


Oh, okay. Yeah I can do that. Good idea. Also deviations for weather too.


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Sorry.  I forgot to say please and thank you.  Like I said before, I (we) appreciate your efforts.  We're going to make you pro at these videos!

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Alexander Polcher
On 6/6/2021 at 3:12 AM, Markus Burkhard said:

Oh I was simply referring to any insights you may want to give about how things are done in real daily operations, like the topic of ETOPS flying which we do not cover in our documentation. 

Good Morning,

regarding ETOPS I might give a little insight from the regulatory and dispatch point of view.

  • What does ETOPS mean?

In terms of european (EASA) standards, ETOPS means Extended Range Operation witht two-engined Aeroplanes and is directly linked to commission regulation 965/2012 Air Operations and Annex II AMC20-6 of commission regulation 1321/2014 Continuing Airworthiness. The abbreviation gives already a hint that this regulation is, in europe, still applicable only to two-engined aeroplanes. Extended Diversion Time Operations (EDTO) have not been implemented by EASA at this stage.

As stated above, there are links to maintenance as well as operative requirements. An ETOPS flight needs several facets:

  • ETOPS certified aircraft
  • ETOPS certified crew
  • ETOPS certified operator
  • ETOPS calculated flightplan

The aircraft is delivered by an aircraft manufacturer with a possible and maximum ETOPS certification which can be achieved (A320FAM for example 180 minutes). This does not mean, that any aircraft, crew or operator are allowed to fly it. First of all, the operator needs to request a certification and approval againts the national aviation authority (e.g. CAA oder LBA). Usually, it will not receive the full ETOPS Diversion Time approval directly but a reduced one.

Within this procedure, the aircraft has to be continuously a) maintained according to a certain plan which includes ETOPS critical systems and for example the Engine Oil Consumption Monitoring program has to be implemented. b) ETOPS flights require an additional Pre-Departure Service Check before any flight. This can also be done for a whole rotation, given that all ETOPS relevant systems are closed and it's verified that for example the oil consumption is within a suitable range. 

Quote

3.1.1 PRE-DEPARTURE SERVICE CHECK
An ETOPS service check should be developed to verify the status of the aeroplane and the ETOPS significant systems. This check should be accomplished by an authorised and trained person prior to an ETOPS flight. Such a person may be a member of the flight crew.

To sum this up: An operator needs to be certified for ETOPS, receive an initial approval (ETOPS 90min for example) and gains more experience and reliabilty data through time. The approval will be extended if procedures are correct applied and all aircraft will be maintained and operated accordingly. As well as the aircraft needs to be equipped with the necessary parts.

  • ETOPS Operation

Commission regulation 965/2012 Air Operation describes the applicabilty of ETOPS in detail. In fact, ETOPS does not stand in any relation to "over water" flights, but is only linked, as Kirk already said, to the maximum distance to an adequate aerodrome. The whole topic get's a little bit more detailed and I will try to describe the vocabulary and relations correctly:

Quote

SPA.ETOPS.100 ETOPS

In commercial air transport operations, two-engined aeroplanes shall only be operated beyond the threshold distance determined in accordance with CAT.OP.MPA.140 if the operator has been granted an ETOPS operational approval by the competent authority.

Two-engined aeroplanes are only allowed to operate beyond the threshold distance, if the operator is certified as described above. Requirements are stated in CAT.OP.MPA.140 (EASA 965/2012 as well):

Quote

CAT.OP.MPA.140 Maximum distance from an adequate aerodrome for two-engined aeroplanes without an ETOPS approval
Regulation

(a) Unless approved by the competent authority in accordance with Subpart F of Annex V (Part-SPA), the operator shall not operate a two-engined aeroplane over a route that contains a point further from an adequate aerodrome, under standard conditions in still air, than the appropriate distance for the given type of aeroplane among the following:
(1) for performance class A aeroplanes with a maximum operational passenger seating configuration (MOPSC) of 20 or more, the distance flown in 60 minutes at the one-engine-inoperative (OEI) cruising speed determined in accordance with point (b);
(2) for performance class A aeroplanes with an MOPSC of 19 or less, the distance flown in 120 minutes or, subject to approval by the competent authority, up to 180 minutes for turbojet aeroplanes, at the OEI cruising speed determined in accordance with point (b);
(3) for performance class B or C aeroplanes, whichever is less:
(i) the distance flown in 120 minutes at the OEI cruising speed determined in accordance with point (b);
(ii) 300 NM.
(b) The operator shall determine a speed for the calculation of the maximum distance to an adequate aerodrome for each two-engined aeroplane type or variant operated, not exceeding VMO (maximum operating speed) based upon the true airspeed that the aeroplane can maintain with one engine inoperative.
(c) The operator shall include the following data, specific to each type or variant, in the operations manual:
(1) the determined OEI cruising speed; and
(2) the determined maximum distance from an adequate aerodrome.

This chapter gives us already a good overview about the requirements. First of all, what is an adequate aerodrome?

Quote

CAT.OP.MPA.107 Adequate aerodrome

The operator shall consider an aerodrome as adequate if, at the expected time of use, the aerodrome is available and equipped with necessary ancillary services such as air traffic services (ATS), sufficient lighting, communications, weather reporting, navigation aids and emergency services.

The operator has, as shown above, to certify and choose a One-Engine-Inoperative (OEI) speed. A rule of thumb is, that this speed is usually located anywhere between 380 and 420 kts TAS. This speed, flown in 60 minutes in still air (no wind!), is used to draw the non-ETOPS circles and shows the maximum distance to an adequate aerodrome where any non-ETOPS flight has to be kept through the entire flight time! Furthermore,the range of 60min One-Engine-Inoperative (OEI) speed is the Threshold Distance where a flight conducts an ETOPS flight.

1455618058_01-non-ETOPS-grn.thumb.png.aa7de2ce5c21a2e22daedba1ffdad005.png

2079079277_01-non-ETOPS-rot.thumb.png.a82a9648df427902d2bf41316bdca008.png

 

If the aircraft flies on an ETOPS routing, aerodromes do not only have to be adequate but as well suitable. Suitable means:

Quote

EASA 965/2012 Air Operations Annex I - Definitions

(126) ‘weather-permissible aerodrome’ means an adequate aerodrome where, for the anticipated time of use, weather reports, or forecasts, or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the required aerodrome operating minima, and the runway surface condition reports indicate that a safe landing will be possible;

Those minimas are stated in AMC1 CAT.OP.MPA.140(d) Maximum distance from an adequate aerodrome for two-engined aeroplanes without an ETOPS approval

165675070_AMC1CAT_OP_MPA.140(d)Maximumdistancefromanadequateaerodromefortwo-enginedaeroplaneswithoutanETOPSapproval.PNG.d1f9902a8675d94068d4be71d7190145.PNG

If all aerodromes meet the required conditions, an ETOPS calculation will be performed. All circles will be, as mentioned above, drawn on the One-Engine-Inoperative (OEI) speed x time. Which means that a Boeing 767-300ER with a OEI of 400kts TAS and an ETOPS 180min Approval will have 1200nm circles drawn above the suitable ETOPS En-Route Alternate Aerodromes.

Within this environment, three different calculations (Critical Fuel Scenario (CFS)) will performed under the following conditions:

  • One-Engine-Inoperative
  • Decrompression (Cabin)
  • One-Engine-Inoperative & Decompression

The worst of all three scenarios will be applied for each critical point, like the ETOPS Entry Point (EEP), all Equal Time Points (ETP) and ETOPS Exit Points (EXP).

1407281830_2ETOPS.thumb.png.483201c198e30009b79f757c6c8fd46f.png

The main difference between the range circles and the Equal Time Point (ETP) is, that this point must be located between two ETOPS En-Route Alternate Aerodromes and within their overlaping sections - but - is calculated with the influence of atmoshperic data including wind. Which means, the ETP can be located between two ETOPS En-Route Alternate Aerodromes, but can be shifting between the overlapping sections.

There are lot's of things to describe, draw and show about ETOPS, but that's a rough overview about the legal side of it.

A real life example of KEF-SEA (FI681) with ETOPS En-Route Alternates (/RALT) BIKF, CYYR, CYWR and KSEA. But I've got to admit that the adequate aerodrome range of KSEA is missing.

FI681.thumb.png.18999f36081199c5db5616cef66feea0.png

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David Spaulding

Hey guys, I got some unintended free time this morning and have created an ETOPS diversion video in the sim. It is crude and not well edited, but it shows essentially how it is done. Compiling now and will be posted shortly if I have enough time, if not, it will wait until next week.


Here it is. A special thanks to the Mrs. for publishing this video while I traveled to PHX.



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Aaron Ortega
2 hours ago, David Spaulding said:

Hey guys, I got some unintended free time this morning and have created an ETOPS diversion video in the sim. It is crude and not well edited, but it shows essentially how it is done. Compiling now and will be posted shortly if I have enough time, if not, it will wait until next week.


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Amazing work.  Thanks so much.  I look forward to watching.  Do you babysit by chance so I can get some time?

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David Spaulding
Amazing work.  Thanks so much.  I look forward to watching.  Do you babysit by chance so I can get some time?

Ha! I have my own to “babysit”.


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David Spaulding
Amazing work.  Thanks so much.  I look forward to watching.  Do you babysit by chance so I can get some time?

Here it is. A special thanks to the Mrs. for publishing this video while I traveled to PHX.





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Aaron Ortega
17 hours ago, David Spaulding said:


Here it is. A special thanks to the Mrs. for publishing this video while I traveled to PHX.

 

 

 

 

 


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Cool, cool.  Yes, please thank the Mrs. from us too.  Safe travels!  

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Aaron Ortega
On 6/11/2021 at 9:48 PM, David Spaulding said:


Here it is. A special thanks to the Mrs. for publishing this video while I traveled to PHX.

 

 

 

 

 


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Well I had to watch in 4 sittings but I got through it.  I applaud your insightful and informative efforts (& humor).  There are just so many pieces to take into consideration; you explained them in simple terms I can try.  Thank you again.  

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