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P3D V4 Plan


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Ifikratis Kamenidis
2 hours ago, Till Lukas said:

A lot of Simmers do not understand that they are just tolerated customers and not desired customers for LM.

I will disagree on that. Maybe not primary customers but certainly desired customers. No company dislikes extra profit. If you look at Prepar3D website, all the running banners are about add-ons for the P3D entertainment market (also http://www.prepar3d.com/developers/ ). Of course their primary market may not be the simmers market (though I don't have any source about that), but they certainly benefit from it. I'm pretty sure if someone add all the purchased licenses for P3D that will be many thousands. Furthermore, in their support forum not only they reply to simmer questions and problems but also try to improve the platform to solve problems, like the memory leaks etc. By the way, a 100% training simulator doesn't need any autogen or shadows. Pure training simulators was just a mesh terrain. Another example.. look at the default airplanes. Does anyone think that a professional school would train pilots on the default planes? Or, is there any add-on aircraft for Prepar3D that is only for professional pilots currently on sale? I honestly haven't seen any. Correct me if wrong, but the most advanced aircrafts in prepar3D I've seen is the ones we all know, including A320X.

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Marc Aussant
4 hours ago, Till Lukas said:

A lot of Simmers do not understand that they are just tolerated customers and not desired customers for LM.

However, lets hope we can enjoy that software for a long time and benefit of the great developments which currently happen.

Till,

It's a bit more subtitle than just dividing customers in two categories. P3D is the natural successor of FSX (in term of customers POW) and as such LM is lurking for the whole FS community as a future customers and not to forget the X-plane concurrence (64bit). 

Lockheed Martin has to make this distinction to honour their legal agreement with Microsoft (they bought the rights to ESP, not to FSX) but they’re more than happy to take your money and let you “train, instruct, simulate and learn” in their sim.

There is no "tolerated or desired" customers, just customers ans business.

Marc 

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Axel Schmidt

Hello guys,

for me I can say when P3Dv4 is comming up and I have to pay again the full price for the A320 I'm finished with it. I have many Sceneries bought for FSX and than came P3Dv1, v2,v3 and the most of it does working fine until today without to any paymant again. ORBX unnounced that they will give an update for his Scenries and they have a lot of it and some work to do. A320 is just one product, ok more complicatet but only one and not complete to programming new. And of course they are still some bugs in it. Would they want to have the whole money again I coudn't understand it.

Regards Axel

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Markus Bendel
40 minutes ago, CFG916_Axel said:

Hello guys,

for me I can say when P3Dv4 is comming up and I have to pay again the full price for the A320 I'm finished with it. I have many Sceneries bought for FSX and than came P3Dv1, v2,v3 and the most of it does working fine until today without to any paymant again. ORBX unnounced that they will give an update for his Scenries and they have a lot of it and some work to do. A320 is just one product, ok more complicatet but only one and not complete to programming new. And of course they are still some bugs in it. Would they want to have the whole money again I coudn't understand it.

Regards Axel

I think your contribution to this discussion shows the problem quite clearly: some people seem to not understand whether or not the developers are being dependent on, for instance, 32-bit and 64-bit libraries... I guess in comparison, scenery add-ons are not that much affected by the transition to 64-bit than aircraft add-ons; so let's be fair and compare FS Labs' upgrade-strategy to, let's say, PMDG's with their 737, 747 and 777.

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Stefan Reese
On 5/22/2017 at 7:16 AM, Marc Aussant said:

Lockheed Martin has to make this distinction to honour their legal agreement with Microsoft (they bought the rights to ESP, not to FSX) but they’re more than happy to take your money and let you “train, instruct, simulate and learn” in their sim.

Marc, you are of the few, active on forums, that understand this nuance of the law. 

As I often say, all pilots are and will forever remain students of flight...

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Ian Kalter

I don't work for free and I don't expect developers too either. Some offer free upgrades due to the ease of conversion (FSDT), some offer free upgrades due to the recent release of their newest version of software (HiFi), and some precharged to cover the development cost of converting their products to v4 (PMDG). Yes the Airbus took 6 years to develop, but they also developed it without any assistance from Airbus - who just recently decided to officially support these desktop simulators/training devices. FSL had a very nice upgrade policy to go from FSX to P3D with the A320X and if they feel they need to do it again to go from v3 to v4, then that is their prerogative and I fully support it - as long as it doesn't take another 6 years ;) 

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Khoa Nguyen

I understand the amount of work to upgrade to v4 64 bit, but simply buy it at full price again does not make sense, since most of other addons provide free upgrade to 64bit, if I have to buy it all again for a320X it is gonna be a big disappointment, anyways hope to see fslabs's offical announcement about 64 bit and their sp1 soon ! 

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Ian Kalter
40 minutes ago, Huy Khoa Nguyen said:

I understand the amount of work to upgrade to v4 64 bit, but simply buy it at full price again does not make sense, since most of other addons provide free upgrade to 64bit, if I have to buy it all again for a320X it is gonna be a big disappointment, anyways hope to see fslabs's offical announcement about 64 bit and their sp1 soon ! 

I doubt it'll be full price. I can only see them charging full price if they had to make the plane from scratch again and given that all of the other big developers (PMDG, A2A, etc.) are releasing their updates within days after v4 is released, I'm sure FSL will follow. All of these developers have had beta and SDK access for the past few months. Porting the plane to v4 is one thing. Implementing all of the new technologies available with v4 may take some more time. This is all just based on what I've read online today. 

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Christian Thomsen
8 hours ago, Lude2Envy said:

some precharged to cover the development cost of converting their products to v4 (PMDG).

So. The FSL A320 is currently the most expensive addon out there for P3D. How can that price not include said precharge? If that is the case I really feel screwed over.

Paying $175 (Thanks 25% VAT) to then pay even more 4 bloody months after? Nahh that wont happen

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Frank Kunath

If a FSL A320 P3D V4 version costs extra, FSL can keep the Airbus. I will not pay so much again for a half-finished product.
PMDG and others bring an update at no extra cost.

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25 minutes ago, Frank Kunath said:

If a FSL A320 P3D V4 version costs extra, FSL can keep the Airbus. I will not pay so much again for a half-finished product.
PMDG and others bring an update at no extra cost.

I like the Airbus too. I fly it only. But i agree to the opinion from frank. Inside 155€ should be a free update for Version P3D v4

i hope so becouse this addone was so expensive...

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Benjamin Erd
6 minutes ago, Luis Ehrt said:

I like the Airbus too. I fly it only. But i agree to the opinion from frank. Inside 155€ should be a free update for Version P3D v4

i hope so becouse this addone was so expensive...

To live completely in commercial reality..we all bought the Airbus for the simulators it was advertised and developed for in the first place..those were FSX and P3Dv3. Nothing was officially promised regarding other simulators, so there is no it "should" be any specific way. If they decided to charge again for P3Dv4, so be it. It is up to everyone personally what one makes out of this. So, lets all wait for FsLabs' update on their further plans and decide afterwards.

Greets, Benny

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Hans Westman

When a bought the A320X it was 25% DCS and 75% P3D   fly only the 320 and Q400, tried XPlane 10-11 with the Les 340 and IXGE 733 .

Today its 25% DCS  10% P3D (A320 Q400) 65% XPlane (340 733) , the 65% less flying P3D is the32bit noting to do with the 320.

I wait and see what gone happen , sure a pay for a uppgrade but not full price one more time , probly test P3D-V4 vs XPlane then we see.

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Kyle Wilford

Well P3D has now been officially launched and every company just about excluding Fly Tampa and Aerosoft have mentioned much about v4.

 

AS16 free upgrade

Orbx free upgrade

PMDG free upgrade

GSX - Pending

fly Tampa - Pending

Fslabs - Pending

Aerosoft - Pending

 

Be interesting to know what those other big players decide. Personally I wont spend anymore money on this sim as it has cost me well over $200AUD as our dollar to eruo is shocking and ive only had this for less than a month! personally i don't agree with v4 being charged again for v3 users however in saying that it is 64 bit and no more OOM unless you max out your DDR ram but by the looks of GSX and others everyone will hahaha.

I'm just excited to see how far i can push my brand new PC!!

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Ian Kalter
20 minutes ago, KAWAUS said:

PMDG free upgrade

PMDG is not a free upgrade. The upgrade price to v4 was included in the cost of the original P3D product you purchased. Go read Robert's post again. With PMDG you paid full price twice if you purchased for FSX and P3D. You didn't do that with FSL. They had a very generous FSX to P3D upgrade price. Quit complaining. 

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Nuno M Pinto

Free or not, they did it wisely. The message they're passing (and 90% of other developers) is that the upgrade is free.

We just paid €140+ for a product less than a year ago for the SAME platform, nobody wants to pay again when the addon was such a high price (never seen before). Specially when there are still so many unadressed flaws.

I agree we pay for an A319 addon or even the next P3D version (heck, cannot support it for free forever), but this is way too recent.

 

I for one am not paying again, sorry about that.

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Kyle Wilford
8 minutes ago, Lude2Envy said:

PMDG is not a free upgrade. The upgrade price to v4 was included in the cost of the original P3D product you purchased. Go read Robert's post again. With PMDG you paid full price twice if you purchased for FSX and P3D. You didn't do that with FSL. They had a very generous FSX to P3D upgrade price. Quit complaining. 

Well I didn't have FSX! and Yes their statement said it was incorporated in the price but but so should the $200 for this sim.

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48 minutes ago, KAWAUS said:

Well P3D has now been officially launched and every company just about excluding Fly Tampa and Aerosoft have mentioned much about v4.

 

AS16 free upgrade

Orbx free upgrade

PMDG free upgrade

GSX - Pending

fly Tampa - Pending

Fslabs - Pending

Aerosoft - Pending

 

 

GSX - Free upgrade

Aerosoft - free upgrade (A330, CRJ, A320, some Airports)

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Kyle Wilford
Just now, Luis Ehrt said:

GSX - Free upgrade

Aerosoft - free upgrade (A330, CRJ, A320, some Airports)

Oh i didn't see the GSX one have been searching for that.

 

My main one for Aerosoft is WADD (Bali) all the others i do not have but will look into buying oneday. (no rush)

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Richard Nellyer

Lefteris and Team

Whatever your decision you have created the ultimate simulation of the A320 and now with the expansion to 64bit you will be able to deliver the depth of systems and the performance we all desire without that dreaded OOM looming. Keep up the great work and if a small upgrade fee is required then you've still got me as a customer.

Now get coding in 64bit! :P

 

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John Mc Avinue

I'm a professional software developer so can fully appreciate the effort that goes into developing a simulation such as this. I paid record setting price because of this.

It's a great simulation but I won't be paying for any update to the new platform. FS Labs knew this was coming and should have built their software to allow it be upgraded as efficiently as possible.

 

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1 hour ago, Nuno M Pinto said:

Free or not, they did it wisely. The message they're passing (and 90% of other developers) is that the upgrade is free.

We just paid €140+ for a product less than a year ago for the SAME platform, nobody wants to pay again when the addon was such a high price (never seen before). Specially when there are still so many unadressed flaws.

I agree we pay for an A319 addon or even the next P3D version (heck, cannot support it for free forever), but this is way too recent.

 

I for one am not paying again, sorry about that.

I also just upgraded to the P3D v3 version. The FSX version has been around for less than a year. I can't justify to pay again to upgrade to v4 unless they seriously had to rework all the systems to make it compatible. If P3D v5 rolls along will we have to pay again? 

I'm personally waiting for the Professional version, so we will see what that brings. 

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Benjamin Beyer










I'm personally waiting for the Professional version, so we will see what that brings. 





Another 200 Bucks at your creditcart receipt.
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Aurelien Vandoorine

I really don't know why there is so much talk as we have absolutely 0 clue on even what kind of price there would be requested. I'm honestly just waiting for official detailed information to have an opinion.

Also on the comparison with PMDG remember PMDG requested user that wanted both to pay the full price when changing to P3D, while if you took the FSX version of the A320 and then the P3D version there was only the difference to be payed. So basically if we are fair in comparing having the A320 for both FSX and P3D cost only $139.9 ($99.95 + $39.95). On PMDG and if you took it on both platform the same way it would have been $224.98 ($89.99 + $134.99).

But honestly why not just wait for the announcement coming, when we have full details and price if there actually is a price in the end, then I think we can discuss what they are doing. Right now there is just a lot of speculation here.

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1 minute ago, airlinetycoon said:

 


Another 200 Bucks at your creditcart receipt.

 

Thats very reasonable for a professional cockpit builder suite. At the moment running Jeehell FMGS for my flightdeck but looking to see what other developers have to offer. 

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Christian Thomsen
2 minutes ago, airlinetycoon said:

 


Another 200 Bucks at your creditcart receipt.

 

Considering the closest competitor to the FSLabs A320 when it comes to A320 home cockpits is the ProSim A320 suite with a pricetag of €1.5K with everything included software wise $200 is indeed very reasonable ;)

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Just now, Christian Thomsen said:

Considering the closest competitor to the FSLabs A320 when it comes to A320 home cockpits is the ProSim A320 suite with a pricetag of €1.5K with everything included software wise $200 is indeed very reasonable ;)

FMGS is pretty good and free for non-commercial use. 

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Peter Fabian
11 minutes ago, John Mc Avinue said:

It's a great simulation but I won't be paying for any update to the new platform. FS Labs knew this was coming and should have built their software to allow it be upgraded as efficiently as possible.

You as a software developer should have been first to realize that FSL could hardly have built their software to allow it to be upgraded, when it is not known what the upgrade will require. That's like asking you to make a Metro ready app before W8 is released.

Some companies took commercial risk to commit to P3D v4 before it was known what it entails. 
Some companies have known now for some time what it entails to convert to P3D v4. They are able to provide immediate statements with regard to cost of conversion.

FSL is neither of those.

I am neither of those as well. I will have to buy P3D v4 when it comes out and evaluate how much of my code I can keep and how much needs to be thrown out.
Lefteris will be doing the same thing.

Neither of us knows what the result will be.

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Jonathan Fong
3 minutes ago, Peter Fabian said:

You as a software developer should have been first to realize that FSL could hardly have built their software to allow it to be upgraded, when it is not known what the upgrade will require. That's like asking you to make a Metro ready app before W8 is released.

Some companies took commercial risk to commit to P3D v4 before it was known what it entails. 
Some companies have known now for some time what it entails to convert to P3D v4. They are able to provide immediate statements with regard to cost of conversion.

FSL is neither of those.

I am neither of those as well. I will have to buy P3D v4 when it comes out and evaluate how much of my code I can keep and how much needs to be thrown out.
Lefteris will be doing the same thing.

Neither of us knows what the result will be.

Except that the FSL devs (Andrew Wilson comes to mind) have mentioned working on x64 for a while now, way before LM officially announced P3D v4... Of course, they could have been referring to x64, but it's equally as likely they actually have had P3D v4 for a while now.

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All I can say is I am definitely upgrading, Night lighting has been reworked, and looks amazing, giving the ambient feel missing all this time in FSX/P3D 3.5<

Check out flytampa Boston for V4 - amazing!

 

DynamicLightingKBOS_3.jpg

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John Mc Avinue
11 minutes ago, Peter Fabian said:

You as a software developer should have been first to realize that FSL could hardly have built their software to allow it to be upgraded, when it is not known what the upgrade will require. That's like asking you to make a Metro ready app before W8 is released.

Some companies took commercial risk to commit to P3D v4 before it was known what it entails. 
Some companies have known now for some time what it entails to convert to P3D v4. They are able to provide immediate statements with regard to cost of conversion.

FSL is neither of those.

I am neither of those as well. I will have to buy P3D v4 when it comes out and evaluate how much of my code I can keep and how much needs to be thrown out.
Lefteris will be doing the same thing.

Neither of us knows what the result will be.

As a software developer I know that certain patterns, practices and principles can allow software to be better maintained and extended for situations exactly like this. That is what a sofware developer must always be thinking of. You state they shouldn't expect it when it's actually the exact opposite.

If they've done it right, which I'm sure they have considering the quality of the simulation, then it shouldn't require that much effort.

Let's not forget this products was released less than a year ago and hasn't even received it's first service pack. In fact, it's only had one update released, and is still in active development with features. They already have the resources assigned and working on it.

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Jouka Ahponen

Dear @Lefteris Kalamaras

I can see the discussion here being rather heated already and people probably misunderstanding your statement as the worst possible way. I believe that you will evaluate this situation the best you can with your team and end up with a reasonable solution, whether it's a free update for P3D v4 or a small upgrade fee. I will say it myself as well, I simply cannot afford a full price, especially as I have bought the FSX version and upgraded it to P3D version. It wouldn't either follow the path you took from FSX to P3D where you did a reasonable small upgrade fee.

You have asked why we don't complain about the Lockheed asking for full price for every new version of their simulator but rather complain to addon developers when they are asking for money for upgrades. The thing and trend so far has been that the flight sim community has simply accepted the fact that every new simulator release is going to cost us the full price. However this is not the case with addons. I cannot recall any addon that has charged a single penny upgrading between P3D versions. I can recall many that has charged something for FSX -> P3D upgrade, but that I have found reasonable. In the end they are two completely different sims, with a bit different technology handled by two different companies. It seems like the trend again is that at least most big companies will give us a free upgrade from P3Dv3 to P3Dv4. It's just a trend that the community follows and has agreed with. Now it would be dangerous to start breaking this trend because the community would attack with "this, this and that addon dev gives a free upgrade why don't you". However I also admit that your statement has a point as well.

I do understand that your team works hard to make the addon the best it can be, including the work needed to port over the addon for P3Dv4 and that work has the be paid in their salaries, of course. However a well known company has adressed that their increased pricing on P3D version compared to FSX version included also the work needed for P3Dv4 in the pricing already. Your product also costs more for P3D, so where that extra money goes? Why P3D version is more expensive bought separately than FSX version? Also, as many other developers can give the upgrade on their addon for free, it cannot be that hard job to port the addon over to v4, can it?

In the end, I love your product and will support you no matter what decision you make. Of course I hope you can also offer free upgrade like everyone else. If not, I would like to hear the reasons why, which you probably will give anyways. Just know that you have built amazing community around your great addon and opened the world of Airbus to many simulator pilots. You can already see the community going a bit crazy over all this speculation and it will probably turn into proper madness given the community doesn't get what they want.

I hope you and your team all the best. Have a great summer and hopefully we can hear more about A320 updates and P3Dv4 upgrade shortly!

Jouka Ahponen

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Greg Clifford

We all know that a tremendous amount of work has gone into the making of the A320 it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. However, I don't think you are looking at this from a good business perspective! 

Yes if you are a first time buyer you should pay the full price of course but payin full price for THE SAME product transferred over to an upgraded platform is unacceptable. I, along with a lot more others will see this point of view. 

 

You argue that people pay full price for platforms. FSX will die as soon as this 64-bit version comes out, that is obvious. That is one of the main reasons why people will buy it but unless you add features to the product being transferred over, there is no justification for charging anything for the upgrade. Yes time goes into it but at the current selling price, I am 100% sure you have made your money back and more.

 

You need to understand that customers do not have a wallet that never empties. We don't have cash running out our ears. Flight simulation is already an expensive hobby with different aircraft and sceneries it is just unacceptable to pay twice for the same product. Just because you have to put time into making it compatible, does not mean it's okay to charge people again for the same product. You are still making money from the first time buyers, no one should have to pay again.

 

From what I have seen, all the big name developers are making their product free of charge for the upgrade because they understand that people have already payed enough. They know that people won't pay again. The A320 is NOT cheap, it is downright robbery to expect someone to give you an extra $150 for the same product. You wouldn't buy the same product twice anywhere else would you?

 

As a business man myself, one of the key elements of business is knowing your customer. Before, it was acceptable for companies to take charge and customers would pay whatever. Today, we live in an age where making a company successful, is about customer satisfaction, the flight simulation market is no different.

I hope that Lefteris and his team take this into account and make a decision based on that.

That is all I have to say on the matter.

Thanks,

Greg

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Peter Ward

Just a personal perspective..

FS labs A320 is a marvellous simulation but to me has been a waste of money as I can hardly go anywhere without an OOM and so have stopped using it, (and I have a high-end system). A 64-bit version would change all that, of course, but I certainly wouldn't pay again for it.

I understand that PMDG are going to offer their 747 QOTS without additional charge pretty well as soon as V4 comes out...

Britjet.

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Ian Kalter
23 minutes ago, Britjet said:

I understand that PMDG are going to offer their 747 QOTS without additional charge pretty well as soon as V4 comes out...

You've already been charged for the v4 upgrade if you already bought it for P3D. Read Robert's post. 

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J_U_A_N__R-A-M-O-S

Having a high-end system has nothing to do with having ooms. In fact maybe you're getting ooms BECAUSE you have a high-end system. Since you have such a system you may feel entitled to put every slide to the right thinking that you system can handle the load. You may be right, it may handle it, but you know what cant handle that? 32-bits code.

Just be realistic about what you're expecting of your settings and the 32 bits constrain. Anyway, that a subject for another topic.

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Arto E.P. Karhu
27 minutes ago, Britjet said:

FS labs A320 is a marvellous simulation but to me has been a waste of money as I can hardly go anywhere without an OOM and so have stopped using it, (and I have a high-end system)

I actually see OOMs going up with higher-end systems. I'd figure the extra horsepower tends to crank those sliders and the amount of addons higher than what's sustainable. :)

OOM has never been an issue to me, but regardless, it is an issue with the platform memory management about which an addon developer can do little to, except by minimizing (cutting) their own memory footprint.

-Esa

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John Mc Avinue
5 minutes ago, Lude2Envy said:

You've already been charged for the v4 upgrade if you already bought it for P3D. Read Robert's post. 

That's what PMDG say but the end result is the same; the customer does not pay for an upgrade. 

FS Labs A320X is one of the, if not THE, most expensive addons out there. I'm not saying it's not worth it, but that is a fact that cannot be ignored.

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Ian Kalter
1 minute ago, John Mc Avinue said:

FS Labs A320X is one of the, if not THE, most expensive addons out there. I'm not saying it's not worth it, but that is a fact that cannot be ignored.

The FSL A320X is $6 more than the QOTSII for a P3D license. With PMDG you had to pay a full price license for the 737 and the 777 for FSX, and then pay an even more expensive full price license for the P3D versions. FSL charged a modest $40 upgrade to go from FSX to P3D. Now tell me again how it's the most expensive addon out there? 

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John Mc Avinue
1 minute ago, Lude2Envy said:

The FSL A320X is $6 more than the QOTSII for a P3D license. With PMDG you had to pay a full price license for the 737 and the 777 for FSX, and then pay an even more expensive full price license for the P3D versions. FSL charged a modest $40 upgrade to go from FSX to P3D. Now tell me again how it's the most expensive addon out there? 

The FSLA320X is the most expensive it is out there. That's a fact which you're trying to gloss over but it is very relevant. If other companies who have charged less aren't charging for an upgrade then FSL most certainly shouldn't be.

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Ian Kalter
3 minutes ago, John Mc Avinue said:

The FSLA320X is the most expensive it is out there. That's a fact which you're trying to gloss over but it is very relevant. If other companies who have charged less aren't charging for an upgrade then FSL most certainly shouldn't be.

1, You don't know what FSL is going to do yet because they haven't made an official statement. So you're just assuming.

2. FSL can do whatever they want whether you like it or not. They have their own licensing and development costs that you know nothing about. You don't know the inner workings of the A320X and just how much extra work it'll take them to make it work in a 64-bit environment. Remember, you get what you pay for when it comes to addons. You want to save money, then go buy the Aerosoft bus, but don't expect the same level of quality. 

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7 minutes ago, Lude2Envy said:

The FSL A320X is $6 more than the QOTSII for a P3D license. With PMDG you had to pay a full price license for the 737 and the 777 for FSX, and then pay an even more expensive full price license for the P3D versions. FSL charged a modest $40 upgrade to go from FSX to P3D. Now tell me again how it's the most expensive addon out there? 

Well. I paid $174.94 (tax included) for the P3D version of FSLABS A320. So its clearly the most expensive (and advanced) addon out there. The upgrade path between FSX and P3D is not relevant.

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Cristian Herrero

Hey guys... please,  as a customer I would like to make a request, before thinking if you gonna charge and make more money for the P3D v4 version. Why not finish up in a proper way this actual version, because this addon is an expensive unfinished software. In order to make this great sim industry grow, I think as customers we should be more demanding before paying for an unfinished and buggy software or demand lower costs that show up the real worth of the software because otherwise is not fair.

 

 

Thanks.

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Ian Kalter
1 minute ago, Wizball said:

Well. I paid $174.94 (tax included) for the P3D version of FSLABS A320. So its clearly the most expensive (and advanced) addon out there. The upgrade path between FSX and P3D is not relevant.

The tax you paid is irrelevant. I didn't pay that much in tax because I live in the U.S. The tax has nothing to do with FSL. It doesn't go into their pockets. 

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