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AP1


Martin Tornberg

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Martin Tornberg

I have now tried to fly to Boston three times in a row and every time of those flights AP1 won't work. This is doing my head in. The AP1 stays engaged but it doesn't do what it's supposed to do. It immediately pitch down when it's supposed to keep the pitch and hdg when first engaged. However the AP2 works at all times. Have anyone been able to find a soloution for this on the P3D version?

I'm seriuosly thinking of going back to the FSX version for Concorde because currently it ruins my experience flying this wonderful aircraft...

Looking forward to hear what your experience is with this and if there is any possible solution. 

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Ray Proudfoot

Martin,

I've only had a couple of flights with Concorde in P3D v3.4 but they're been fine with no A/P problems. It doesn't sound like a problem affecting many people otherwise there'd been more complaints.

A screenshot when the problem occurs might help.

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Kyprianos Biris

Martin I've never had this issue and I'm flying Concorde-X on P3D since the P3D version was released.

I'm not asking you operational questions because I know you're very experienced on this.

Weird !

One thing I would do (but its painful) is I would uninstall the A320 and CONC, wipe out remaining files, reinstall clean the CONC and see how it behaves.

This is to eliminate the chance of any files cross affecting FSL add on's.

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Martin Tornberg

I will replicate this problem I'm having and posting screenshots. Hopefully tonight. 

Looking on your forum profiles it looks like you guys don't have the A320 installed on P3D?

I know that one of the beta guys James also have experienced the same autopilot thing. 

I guess I could try again to uninstall everything that has to do with FSLabs and ONLY have Concorde installed and see if I can make the same problem happen again. 

Again, AP2 works but not AP1. The strange thing is that AP1 looks like it's engaged properly since PITCH HOLD and HDG HOLD is illuminated as it should be, however it just instant pitch down. 

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Ray Proudfoot

Hi Martin,

No, I don't have the A320. But even if you do I can't understand why the mechanics of one would interfere with the other aircraft. They're entirely separate with their own folder structure. I can't see the A320 being an issue unless it was an extremely obscure one that the developers and testers missed.

But if you are able to replicate this problem consistently then that is good. Make one change - uninstall the A320 - and if it resolves it then there has to be a connection however remote.

Is this with just one route or all of them? And if not one of the standard FS Labs routes how do you get the aircraft data? CPS-X?

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Fraser Gale

I do have both installed and have done since both were released for P3d, I have never had an autopilot problem. 

It has been known for the A320 to upset the Concorde installation though I have not experienced it. If it happens again, post screen shots of your panels. 

The only issue I have occasionally, is on departure from Heathrow I get an elevon "hard over" when my Saitek yoke seems to stop working and the only way to save the aircraft is to engage the autopilot rather quickly! When I go to FSUIPC my yoke axis does not respond so I either do the rest of the flight on autopilot (which I don't like) or I unplug the yoke then plug it in again which causes P3d to crash...... This is the only issue I have had with P3d though and it is a lot better than FSX. 

Frazz

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Ray Proudfoot
3 hours ago, AhadOC said:

I have the same issue.... even if i don't have a320x installed i sometimes get this bug... FSLabs needs to fix it asap.

You're not exactly giving us loads of info to work with. The fact you only get it sometimes is the most difficult to analyse and fix. See if you can spot a pattern and then report.

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I had a similar problem sometime back, but in my case both APs would engage but have no effect whatsoever on the aircraft.

In the end I just uninstalled and re-installed Concorde and spotlights and the problem got away. So, although a pain in the back, it might be worth your time to do just what Kyp suggested and uninstall/re-install everything, just in case..

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Martin Tornberg
1 hour ago, Fraser Gale said:

If it was a hard fault with FSLabs Concorde, wouldn't we all have it? 

It's far more likely to be something else that doesn't agree with Concorde or dare I say, pilot error.

Frazz

Well thing is, it happens intermittent. Not sure why that's why I'm raising this so we can solve it hopefully. It might be a pilot error but in the sense of me maybe loading it incorrectly. Because I have flown a couple of hours in the FSX version without this problem amongst some other issues I have had with P3D. 

Not saying it's Concorde's fault but I rather think maybe it's a combination of several things causing this. 

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Martin Tornberg

And to add I always use CPS when flying and never the default loads, always the ones set by CPS and now more recent the excellent CPS-X. 

Maybe I should try to set-up some flights without involving CPS, could CPS loader cause some problems?

Doing some brainstorming here. 

 

EDIT: To add what Ray asked, it has happened on other flights as well but this time it happend three times in a row trying to fly to Boston.

 

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Martin Tornberg

If it really was a proper induced pilot error wouldn't the AP automatically sense that and disconnect as it normally does if you for example have a high pitch attitude?

With this problem the PITCH HOLD and HDG HOLD announciation is properly illuminated and the AP stays connected, NOT disconnecting. But nothing happens when it comes either autopilot servo inputs or any change on the flight directors. 

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Ray Proudfoot
57 minutes ago, Martin Tornberg said:

And to add I always use CPS when flying and never the default loads, always the ones set by CPS and now more recent the excellent CPS-X. 

Maybe I should try to set-up some flights without involving CPS, could CPS loader cause some problems?

Doing some brainstorming here. 

 

EDIT: To add what Ray asked, it has happened on other flights as well but this time it happend three times in a row trying to fly to Boston.

 

Doubt it's CPS-X but if you provide a plan and a clue where it happens I'll try it. What version of P3D are you running? I'm on 3.4.

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Fraser Gale
1 hour ago, Martin Tornberg said:

If it really was a proper induced pilot error wouldn't the AP automatically sense that and disconnect as it normally does if you for example have a high pitch attitude?

With this problem the PITCH HOLD and HDG HOLD announciation is properly illuminated and the AP stays connected, NOT disconnecting. But nothing happens when it comes either autopilot servo inputs or any change on the flight directors. 

Pilot error does not just mean an input on the controls or an aircraft out of normal attitude.  Many things affect the engagement (or lack of) of the autopilot - INS, electric trim, electric signalling, autostab, hydraulics.... As none of these should fail in the simulator without selection, it would be classes for simplicity as pilot error. 

If it happens again, check the master warning and press recall and see if anything faults are shown, if not, check all the above as some of the MWS logic may not be exactly accurate.

Frazz

 

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Martin Tornberg
24 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Doubt it's CPS-X but if you provide a plan and a clue where it happens I'll try it. What version of P3D are you running? I'm on 3.4.

My version is 3.4 as well. 

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Martin Tornberg

I tried now to start a flight with the preset traning load and took off from 27L. Autopilot worked like a charm. 

I will now try a full flight to Boston again with CPS-X and I will record the departure. 

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Martin Tornberg

This is a quick and dirty set-up for Boston from Heathrow 09R. Same problem as before and I did load the simulator as I always do which have been working before. 

 

 

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Fraser Gale

Ok, I thought by your first post the autopilot wouldn't engage which is very different from what you actually think is wrong, so ignore my previous points. 

I hate to say this, but from what I can see, there is nothing wrong.  When you first engaged AP 1, you expected it to hold the pitch but you were already beginning to pitch down (understandable as you are flicking switches and talking to us) so the AP took a few seconds to react but when it did, it looks like it held the pitch on the ADI - it is difficult to see the little lines on the scale in the video however. It did change vertical speed into a descent though, because you had just reduced thrust and it is trying to hold pitch, NOT vertical speed.  

The second time you engaged AP 1, it still looked like it held the pitch but the vertical speed was changing, maybe due to atmospherics or thrust. When you used the datum adjust, I couldn't see the ADI well enough but it shouldn't change the pitch that quickly anyway and your vertical speed increased which would be the logical change. 

There is no correlation between vertical speed and pitch due to all the other things that affect vertical speed. What happens if you select vertical speed mode on the AFCS? Does this hold the vertical speed? Do the other modes on the AP work? 

Incidentally, you would never normally engaged a Concorde AP at such a point in the flight anyway (I know you were probably doing this to save time) but the earliest it would be engaged would be after full dry power has been restored (at the end of noise abatement). This is becaus things are a lot more stable once that point is reached. 

Concorde's autopilot was the most advanced in the world and still is when it comes to Max climb and Max cruise mode, but it was 1960s and wasn't quite as "digital" as modern ones, in other words, you had to keep a close eye on what it was doing.  The French did a good job of the autopilot I must say. 

Frazz

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Martin Tornberg

Sorry I wasn't clear enough in the beginnning. 

Well I don't agree with you at all. At the noise abatement time I turned off the reheats and pressed CTRL+F5 (reduce power setting to predetermined TLA) then CTRL+F6 to set engine to FLIGHT. 

Then flying manually to maintain 250 kts and when suitable I engage AP1 which should keep current pitch and heading. But as you could see on the video it doesn't do ANYTHING, it just pitches down as if I were to just let go of the yoke without engagin AP. It's totally different reaction from what I'm normally used to. 

Even though I had reduced thrust I have tried that before and it will keep the pitch at least in the simulator, bear in mind I haven't flown Concorde in reaL life. But it is a different behaviour that I'm used to when everything works ok. 

When using datum pitch adjustment in the first place with AP1 engaged nothing happens as you could see. However when AP2 in engaged it immediately responds to pitch datum adjust. Again, I haven't flown Concorde in real life but it is a different reaction compared with the other 1500hrs plus I have flown with this magnificent aircraft. Something IS wrong. 

I know that there is no correlation between pitch and vertical speed, totally different story. And I have tried all different kind of modes on the autopilot still no response whatsoever compared to having AP2 engaged. I have tried this previous when the AP1 doesn't work as it should be but AP2 does with ALL modes. I tried in the video to using VS mode but no response, only on AP2. 

When it comes to early engage of the AP I normally hand fly up to full dry power on for example a CPT departure 27L all the way to CPT. At that point I have easily achieved full dry power and VMO. Again, I haven't flown Concorde in real life BUT this is acting totally different than I'm used to before all of this started to happen. This is how I did on the previous three Boston departures where the AP1 is going bonkers whereas AP2 works.

I have tried before to fly with AP engaged at less than full power and it has worked earlier however not the recent flights I have tried. 

 

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Ray Proudfoot

Martin,

It is a strange problem. I suggest you uninstall, remove all the Concorde folders within the FSLabs structure that may remain and reinstall.

It's the most straightforward way of trying to cure the problem as I can't see that you are doing anything wrong. 

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Fraser Gale

Do the other modes work on the autopilot? 

Does putting in a control input with the autopilot engaged have any effect? 

Does vertical speed mode work? 

If not, it sounds like there is a conflict somewhere in the sim.  If you are using FSUIPC, go into P3d settings and make sure all joysticks/pedals/button assignments are completely deleted from the controls dialogue. 

Another thing to try is using "Z" to cancel the autopilot then engaging again, if there is a conflict somewhere, Z will sometimes switch it off.

I found it difficult to see what you are talking about on the video as I was purely looking at the ADI for pitch change and it didn't look like it was moving much, but as I say, it was difficult to tell. 

As an aside, you should have your transparency de-ice/de-mist switched on before departure - just noticed as I was scanning your panels.

Frazz

 

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Martin Tornberg

No modes works with AP1.

Nothing happens when using flight controls with AP1 engaged. 

Vertical speed mode doesn't work with AP1.

I'm using FSUIPC, will check if there is any conflicts in P3D settings. I haven't touched it though recently. 

I will try to use Z next time when it happens and see if it changes anything. 

(About the transparency I missed it when doing a quick set up I guess.)

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Martin Tornberg

I uninstalled everything named FSLabs and removed CPS-X as well.

Installed the Concorde again (as per the installation instructions on the forum) but not the bus and I'm currently on my way to Boston and so far so good. I will get back if I get the described issue again. 

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Mike Ionas

Martin have you tried to install the A320 again and see if Concorde still works without problems? I am asking because I tried to fly it this morning (with A320 installed as well) and run in a similar issue like yours where AP1 was not working, but AP2 was. Strange thing was that on a subsequent test it seemed to work without issues..

I will make a few more attempts and get back.

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Martin Tornberg

Mike, to be honest I'm not that eager to reinstall the bus again... But I tell you what, I will do a couple of more flights this and next week. And if there is no more AP problems then I will reinstall the bus and see if the AP-problems appear again. 

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Mike Ionas

Thanks Martin. Will wait for your assessment. In the mean time:

Second attempt for a full flight from SBGR to FACT. Prepare, takeoff, engage AP1 and both ATs for subsonic part, everything works as it should. Go supersonic and reach M2.00. I am now at cruise/climb with AP1 and AT1 engaged. After one hour into the flight I hear the sound of engine surge. The following is happening: every 20-30s the throttles jump to idle and reverse buckets are opening (although it shouldn't happen in flight if they are not unlocked if I am not mistaken and only 2 and 3 should be able to unlock, but strange does not end here) and after a couple of seconds jumps back to full. Even stranger is the fact that during this cycle the engines remains at full thrust although one would expect them to go to idle when the throttles are retracted. Initially I thought of the possibility of one of the hardware controllers to have a problem, but they seem to work fine. This continued for around 45min with me trying to find what could cause the 4 reverse buckets only to open and close as described above.. I decide to turn off AT1 and everything goes back to normal. Turn it on and the problem returns. I switch to AP2 and AT2 and everything is ok. Go back to AP1 and AT1 and the problem with the reverse buckets returns. I leave only AP1 on and monitor the flight up to the deccel point. As long as AT1 is off, everything seems to be ok. I descent, go subsonic and am cleared to 12000. I engage ALT ACQ and arm AT1 and 2. The aircraft level off at 12000 as expected, IAS HOLD is activated in the AT as expected but the thrust goes to full and remains there until I overspeed. I try IAS ACQ but the thrust still remains at full. I disengage both ATs and manage the thrust manually. I try only AT1 and the thrust goes back to full. I try only AT2 and everything works as it should..

After all that it was time to land so I disabled AP and AT and landed manually without further incident.

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Mike Ionas

After the above incident I flew three more legs without incident and without having changed anything to P3D. Today I flew a fourth leg and had the issue with the reverse buckets engaging during the supersonic cruise, as I describe in the previous post. However this time I knew the remedy and just switched off AT1 (and AP1) and continued the supersonic part of the flight with AP2/AT2. During the subsonic part, engaging AT1 resulted in throttles going to full regardless of the mode (like the previous post occurrence) so I just continued using AT2 only.

So now after 6 flights where the exact same procedure was followed, from the moment I fired up the sim to the moment I shut it down, I had 1 AP1/AT1 incident where the flight was scraped, 2 AT1 strange incidents where the flight continued without using it and 3 perfectly good flights. The only difference were the city pairs (with the exception of the first two legs) but I do not think that has anything to do with the strange problems occurring..

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AdrianSmith
On 4/30/2017 at 10:18 PM, Martin Tornberg said:

Then flying manually to maintain 250 kts and when suitable I engage AP1 which should keep current pitch and heading. But as you could see on the video it doesn't do ANYTHING, it just pitches down as if I were to just let go of the yoke without engagin AP. It's totally different reaction from what I'm normally used to.

By the way you type that it seriously sounds like you are out of trim, if you let go of the yoke NOTHING SHOULD HAPPEN if the aircraft is in trim.

If it is not in trim this could be affecting A/P engagement.

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