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Starting out by just messing around, trying to do a retro AirBerlin livery..... it got to 50+ repaints in 1.5 years... Really turned out to be a great way for me to unplug and relax Thanks everyone for your support and kind words! See you some day in MSFS, FSLabs!

Hmm, let's see. MSFS is currently $48 on steam right now, and a certain A320 addon is $61. It flies nicely, systems are good, frames are quite good. No weather radar for now, but will come in the future. Certainly some bugs to put up with, but so far for me I've found it plenty acceptable. Looks like this with I'd say a couple hours of set up if you include getting some good model matching: May I remind you this is MSFS with no scenery addons at all. Think about how much money you have to spend just to get one city in P3D to look like this The only addons in this photo are the plane itself and Munich airport. All the scenery around the airport is what you get out of the box: Throw in a payware airport or two, you're down another $30-40, and you're here: So for a grand total of $150 I'm doing pretty well. Lots of lovely free airports in flightsim.to as well to check out, I highly recommend Lhasa and Dheli personally _________________________________________________ Okay so P3D time... Well, P3Dv5 is $200. But I'll be generous and assume we're all gonna skirt the license agreement and use the Academic version for $60 instead. Alright, well let's be honest, as my previous screenshots prove and as Rob so kindly pointed out, I clearly know nothing about P3D addons and it looks bad without them so.. let's get the list going shall we? Our favorite A320 addon is $150, so we'll add that to the tally. I'll be extra generous and assume you don't care about weather radar and won't tally up the $40 that will cost you since it doesn't exist in MSFS yet. Oh, and the default camera system is absolutely awful so let's add Chaseplane: $35 Scenery wise, we've got quite the shopping list: Orbx Global: $63, Orbx Vector: $31, of course. Oh, and you're gonna want an Orbx Landclass as well. But this is gonna get expensive fast so we'll just assume you're only interested in flying on one particular continent. And it better not be Asia: $37. Oh, and P3D default trees are pretty rough so we'll throw in TerraFlora as well: $21. You'll want airports too, so again we'll pony up $40 (and that's very generous) for a couple nice ones. And your final result is pretty decent: But don't you dare leave that continent you purchased or you're back in FS9 again: Anyway, this experience has cost us $437. (Or $575 if you want to follow the EULA ) And you're severely limited in where you can fly that looks respectable. And (at least for me) I'd also be getting worse frame rates than I do in the new sim. And that's not to mention the amount of hard drive space you'll need to dedicate to all these addons (well over 1.5TB for me). So the final tally: MSFS:.......$48 P3D Academic ;):......$60 A320:.......$61 A320:................$150 2 Airports:.$40 Basic global scenery:$152 _______________ 2 Airports:...........$40 Total:.....$149 Chaseplane:...........$35 _________________________ Total:...............$437 Throw in another $148 to fly to all the other continents (except Asia, it will still look like poop). And then maybe you'll want some regions, since let's be real OpenLC is still just fine. And I didn't even mention Envtex, Envshade, GSX... If I want just california to look as good as it does in MSFS, we're talking $68 for TE Norcal and Socal. Oregon and Washington? Another $68. We're gonna be pushing the thousand mark here pretty quick if we want to venture any further. I know we all forgot how much money we've sunk into P3D but it's easy to tolerate what most people think are minor issues if it means not having to buy 15 addons from 10 developers for $100 to get a respectable flight going every time you want to fly to a new part of the world. I Hope this answers your question about why many of us are so excited to get an FSLabs A330 in the new sim. Lots of new places to fly, with minimal effort and dollars to get the whole flight to look great. Not just good airports at either end with vast swaths of wasteland in between

Complete LDA fleet pack (CFM & IAE) coming these days....

Geez every time that one of us mention msfs in any which way you will always come back with a book of negatives and points that are wrong with msfs. Time to give it a rest and let us msfs users have to fun not like your forced into using msfs. We all get it you have a agenda against msfs

New addition to Edelweiss fleet (transferred from Swiss on May 2022 (wip)

Well as I'm sure you've noticed I didn't buy the Concorde for V3 either. Obviously a great airplane, but just never resonated with me. I guess this is where the difference in what we consider 'depth' to be. For some it's the systems depth of a single amazing addon like the Concorde or the FSL A320. For others, it's flying realistic schedules or airline operations with great ATC (thankfully this one isn't too sim dependent). For me, I can't deny I love some good systems. But being able to explore new airports, flying new procedures in a well developed addon is what I consider 'depth'. For me, MSFS is far deeper in this regard than P3D ever was. Flying routes like Delhi - Kathmandu, Shanghai - Hefei, or the United Island Hopper felt disappointing no matter how much money I dumped into addons. So I don't think it's fair to say MSFS isn't "deep". It's just not deep in the one specific area you wish it to be deep in yet. For someone like me, it's P3D's lack of good global scenery that makes it feel shallow in comparison. Maybe I misjudge, but I don't think I'm the only person where I simply need a reliable plane that can fly on Vatsim without having to fight it if things don't go exactly as the plane expects. This has always been what has separated the big boys (FSL, PMDG) from those like Aerosoft or QualityWings. Now we have airplanes that meet this standard in MSFS, and that combined with the amazing freedom of being able to choose any random route and knowing it will feel deep and immersive makes MSFS the deeper sim for myself. Nothing would make me happier than a good longhaul plane that can be the workhorse for me. I know FSL have an A332 on the horizon, and this is that perfect plane. So many airlines fly them on so many interesting routes. Air France to West Africa (a place that looks, let's say, terrible in P3D), Turkish Airlines to Central Asia (Again, another place that has never recieved any love in P3D), South African Airways, China Southern, and on and on. This is what I look forward to in MSFS that I know P3D will never be able to satiate.

This thread was created in response to FSL announcing several things: The A320 Neo, Concorde Updates, and the A330 as well as their plans regarding both P3D and MSFS development. Rob made his opinion quite clear in the beginning that he was happy that P3D development was coming first in response to this announcement, but as I'm sure you've seen many of us who, as you can see from our sidebars, also love FSL but who have moved toward MSFS are expressing both our excitement for future FSL Development for the MSFS platform, and also expressing our disagreement with what Rob and others have said about MSFS as a flight simulator. I don't think it's surprising that Rob, who made a post that was extremely negative toward MSFS's graphics/world scenery in particular was met with ridicule given the current state of what the P3D world looks like. There's things you can bash MSFS for no doubt, the camera system is clunky and annoying, there are still features that we have grown accustomed to in P3D that are missing, and addon makers like Activesky and others haven't transitioned to MSFS to provide things like historical weather which are clearly popular features for the more hardcore simmers among us. But come on, it doesn't take a whole lot of experience to see that out of the box the visual experience in MSFS is far superior to P3D. Forgive us who love our FSL addons for sharing our pleasure with the new simulator and expressing our desire to see products developed for it. I think there are many people who feel that further investment in P3D addons at this point is not worth it.

Why? That makes no sense ... I never gave it a rest for P3D or XP, complacency isn't good for progress. I'm not trying to tell you to give it a rest ... not that you have any say on what I post. I listed my 25 missing/broken elements in MSFS ... why would I want to go "backwards", just because other's don't mind, sorry I'm not a crowd follower, never have been, I make my own path/decisions. You seem to be going in circles and/or definitely not happy that FSLabs releasing the P3D version first ... you and I know the answer, the MSFS SDK is just too weak to support everything that these FSLabs aircraft can do in P3D. MSFS versions are coming out later because FSLabs development team are likely waiting for Asobo to get their act together and provide the necessary features in the SDK or they're having to go outside the SDK (time consuming and expensive). If you have a problem with that, then you need to stop being complacent about MSFS/Asobo and make it loud and known they need to get their SDK in order ... that's what I would and do ... I couldn't careless about yet another MSFS world update and more free aircraft when there are so so many other items that need to be fixed, implemented, and released (my 25 item list is just a start to get MSFS on par with P3D). Maybe rather than "give it a rest mate", you take your "couldn't care less" (because clearly you do) and direct that energy towards MSFS/Asobo ... hopefully you don't encounter crickets. Cheers, Rob.

Could not agree more with you Peter. The irony is though P3D users spend so much money on ‘eye candy’ trying to make P3D at least graphically acceptable . I couldn’t careless if they never install MSFS, but please give this bashing a rest…..we get it you don’t like it! BTW just how long has P3D been around? Why does P3D need shaders, scenery enhancements, or indeed chase plane? Well I guess it’s because the default is awful a bit like FSX? Hey let’s talk about default airlines surely there something for new flightsim guys to try? Nah nothing…..

Hello all, It's been a couple months since our last news, so I wanted to take this opportunity and give you an update of our current project development status. We've so far been very quiet as regards our MSFS development plans - we've taken some time to investigate the best possible way to bring our product family into the new platform while maintaining a common code base that still keeps a high level of realism and fidelity as regards the flight model characteristics our customer base has been used to up to now. Given the well documented state of the Microsoft Flight Simulator SDK we are continuing our efforts to innovate beyond the platforms' current limitations. Over the last eighteen months, FSLabs has undergone a period of growth where we've brought a number of new developers on board as well as a new support team member and this allows us to utilize functional teams to develop our products in parallel. A few words regarding our current product road map: We're very excited to be working on the A320 NEO which we expect to make available on the Prepar3D platform initially. The A320 NEO will join the A320-X Master Series line of products that we are working to bring onto the MSFS platform. We also expect to release the Concorde on Prepar3D first and again, we're working to release it to the MSFS platform. We will be excited to share more previews of this title as it enters beta testing in the next six to eight weeks! We're also happy to announce that the A3XX product that we've been teasing for a while now is in fact the Airbus A330. We've been working on this product along side our other development and we expect to give you more news on that later on. Last but not least, as promised in my last news announcement, we're excited to bring a functional update to the A319/A320/A321 WTF series that brings the EFB, and Jump Ahead feature to these aircraft (for owners of the Sharklets series) as part of today's update that will become available in the next few hours as part of our experimental channel. This update will also include more fixes and improvements to the FMGC logic as part of our continued commitment to supporting our existing product family. As always, thank you for your continued support!

HAM-PMI

What you don’t get Rob is thousands do like it now without your 25 point list. Moreover we like it even more now with PMDG, FENIX etc and that is straight out of the box. As I say please carry on enjoying P3D and let us enjoy MSFS, move on for goodness sake we really do get it. Just how long has LM been trying to get P3D graphics right, which you yourself state still ain’t right….go figure

tl;dr of this thread: If you're really into bridges, MSFS is not for you

Zurich to Ibiza

departing LEMD to GGCLP, back in P3D5 after a long period (and oviously reintalled FSLabs family for first)

TLS - GVA

Are you always spreading misleading facts about MSFS? No it is not, it is always per aircraft since day 1.

Here is my list of things MSFS need to bring before I consider it a viable platform for what I want to do with a flight simulator: 1. Multi-monitor support with detachable views that can be dragged and placed (full screen) on those other monitors ... this is required for using my RealSimGear hardware GNS 530 and GTN 750. 2. Accurate weather radar support 3. Accurate weather 4. Historical weather 5. Increased LoDRadius without massive FPS drop 6. DX12 so I can actually use the Ray Tracing accelerated support from my GPU 7. A viable replay system (the one in dev mode is a joke) 8. A much better camera system and zooming capabilities (fish eye just doesn't hack it) 9. Fix Photogrammetry so that freeway overpasses, bridges and other objects aren't walls 10. Fix the very annoying horizontal line that goes from side to side and always present and very present during dusk (very obvious in 4K or higher resolutions) 11. Improve SDK so the 3rd party can make AI traffic not be brain dead and spinning while parked (live AI is a joke and source of stutters) 12. Fix Photogrammerty caching so that resolved resolution of objects gets loaded rather than almost always gets re-loaded ... hint a large PR cache should work much better NOT worse ... I/O bandwidth latency is ns and GB/sec, many orders of magnitude better than my 1Gbps internet connection. 13. Fix Photogrammerty so it resolves to higher resolution fast (melted building is NOT next generation) 14. Fix SDK with ability to use external hardware modules (GoFlight and others) beyond very basic functionality 15. Better flight physics, cross winds are still broken as are gusts 16. Fix the shadow drawing problems that are very obvious 17. Fix the water rooftops on buildings 18. Fix the overly shaded clouds and the clear sky puff clouds issue 19. Fix the excessive darkness when clouds are overhead 20. Add specular ray support (DX12) 21. Fix strange massive FPS drops in certain situations 22. Provide an easy way to completely remove the auto menu pop (words not icons) 23. Stop working on free scenery, we have 3rd party devs that can do that, use those resources elsewhere 24. Fix all the ocean/water cracks 25. Add proper haze support, as shown in my real world video, haze is real, does happen, pretty common, yes it doesn't look as "pretty" but I'm after realism. I couldn't care less about cost, this hobby is still 1000X cheaper than any other hobby I have (be it P3D, XP, or MSFS). Don't care about VR, don't care about XBOX, do care about those 25 items above ... selfish, sure ... but that's what it will take for me to start taking MSFS seriously and not think of it as just a game (nothing wrong with games BTW, I enjoy games also, Anno 1800, AOE IV, Civ VI). Cheers, Rob.

Totally get you on the red lines, they're different for all of us. While historical weather isn't anything I've ever utilized, I can see why it's important to some and as I said, I still have P3D on my machine (though admittedly I haven't had the urge to launch it since I setup MSFS). One can only hope that a 3rd party dev will take care of what Asobo don't, just like happened with P3D. The road traffic zinger though I still find hilarious. 1/3rd of the world in P3D is literally just flat grass with 2D roads randomly strewn on top and no traffic, but somehow the traffic driving on the water in one location is supposed to be a gotcha against MSFS. Whatever floats your boat I guess!

Hamburg to Cologne last weekend! On approach into 14L A nice way to wrap up the evening.

The brand new Lufthansa special livery: Lovehansa

First attempt at creating a livery

American A319 KMIA-TXKF

This wás a good pro/con discussion. Since it is now degrading into personal attacks I'm locking it for now.

I've had such great experiences in P3d, X-Plane, and now I'm having some great experiences in MSFS as well. Anyways, since we apparently have to pick sides, for me its:

I used Chaseplane with P3D and I would say yes, I'd much prefer having Chaseplane or an equivalent option in MSFS. But it's not a dealbreaker for me personally as once you get used to it you can get the cameras to mostly do what you want. It's much better than the default P3D camera system, for example.

This whole topic went from discussing the great news announcement to let’s bash MSFS2020. SMH Granted Rob started the post but I think we get it several pages back. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're missing the forest for the trees. As a normal person with limited free time who wants enjoy flight simming, and has sunk literally hundreds of dollars into addons for P3D, there are still significant parts of the world that look identical to how they did in FS9. MSFS has solved this problem, if you're willing to put up with a couple weird looking bridges that you had to illegally fly a few hundred feet over Portland to even notice. I picked up MSFS 3 days ago, purchased a plane and downloaded some basic freeware airport scenery. I think this compares pretty favorably to my time landing at FlyTampa Amsterdam with TrueEarth Netherlands, Envtex and Envshade, Activesky and ASCA. And I was getting about 2-2.5x better frames in MSFS. MSFS has its issues no doubt - no weather radar is sad, but I put up with that in P3D for years before Activesky was a thing, I can live with it again for a few months. The planes are brand new and show amazing potential, just like the Labus did when it first launched. The handflying feels great too, no doubt thanks in part to the better performance. Again, I cannot state enough how excited I am for FSlabs first forays into the new sim. It is a platform with incredible potential, and while there are certainly tradeoffs for some regarding historical weather, the bandwith usage, and other niggles, it's clear that for those of us who want to get to flying and aren't too worried about tinkering with settings that MSFS represents an absolutely incredible starting point.

I guess I will never get used to that livery

Off we go!

N708JB updated.

GVA - DBV

I believe 3 Million is the current unit sales of MSFS ... never disagreed that more like MSFS, review my posts. Not really sure how you think I'm stopping anyone from enjoying MSFS? P3D has/had plenty of issues and people like yourself and many others pointed them out daily (many valid, some not, some trolls) ... why suggest move on? No one is forcing you to post here or even read this thread? Are you really here because it bothers you that these aircraft are coming out for P3D first? If so, why? Cheers, Rob.

So you consider highlighting faults or features not available/ not planned are “bashing”? It’s been out two years. You might well ask Asobo why those haven’t been addressed. It’s a legitimate question. And given this is the FSL forum that only develops for P3D what do you expect?

Honestly Rob I found your original post so hilarious that I had to comment. I hope I don't offend, but I'm sure someone will appreciate my sense of humor. __________________ Couldn’t care less about P3D… after taking off out of Istanbul and flying out over the coast of Africa in P3D these global scenery adding just seem to keep making P3D worse and worse … it’s frankly just garbage graphics in P3D (even more so when it’s cloudy, OMG what a mess). I just don’t get how P3D fans can turn a blind eye to these obvious issues in P3D: Entire landmasses a single color? What even is this fog? Pixelated oceans and hundreds of miles of repeating textures? And what is going on with this lighting? And the list of visual problems with P3D goes on and on … I just don’t get the attraction let alone understand how P3D users just ignore these problems? When MSFS has visual problems (and it does) the world is coming to and end, but when P3D has worse visual problems all is good?! P3Dv5 is “Next generation” … a couple years of updates and it’s still the same old FSX underneath… maybe in 10 years when I have children it’ll be fixed? Best, Steven.

I have to agree with John. What I see it's people that invested thousands in order to make P3D look acceptable. For myself I have spent an enormous amount of time tweaking, troubleshooting overnight. It's too easy now come and just say that the other one is such and such. Hey troubleshooting P3D can be a nightmare. 10 minutes the first load for building up the aircraft stuff within the simulator. I remember 24 hours trying to figure out why I was getting error with a 330 and I didn't even fly the aircraft for the first time. Experienced simmers. Don't you remember that we used to say that every system is unique, we ask for addons, specs etc. Don't you remember having to uninstall all the addons and install one by one in other to troubleshoot ? Don't you remember how many times haven't you made a clean install of your entire system as a last try to solve the problem ? Stop. The aircraft flies great. Sorry but after all those years and all the investment I can understand that is hard to just let it go. I know what I'm talking about. so let just be honest. And hey .. once we have passed half of the time tweaking and troubleshooting the new sim then we can compare them. Why not just have a nice discussion and just give positive inputs and just help everybody enjoy more and more whatever their sim or sims are. Tired of those comments treating the FS2020 guys like that..( gamers, kids, xbox, etc. We have hardcore simmers there. Really and now even more. One day I hope that FSLabs will be bringing something there. A330 A350 whatever man. But let's treat the other one's work with respect. FSX was a massive big game rather than a simulator. Now look what the devs have done with it. PMDG, FSLabs, Leonardo etc. So come on.. I will let you enjoy what just for the shadows would cost a massive fps drop with P3D with all the shades addon. Same computer specs. Nothing has changed and it runs just smooth.

Why Rob does MFSFS bother you so much simple don’t use it, it is as simple as that…I couldn’t careless about P3D Rob, read my early posts. Just give it a rest mate. BTW I don’t think I’ve bashed P3D, it’s FSX after all, the license issue with LM…now that’s something else isn’t it.

SKG is always fun!

Dubrovnik to Zurich

That’s a lot of salt.