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Will It Be Modeled This Deep?


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#1 Kareem Maged

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:39 AM

Hello,
Looking through YouTube I found a old documentary about Airbus aircraft, hearing the pilot commentary, I was surprised that sometimes they do not follow the ECAM actions to ensure saftey of the airplane, as if they do, some systems will be compromised, an example of this is from minute 18 to minute 23.
Probably Airbus has fixed such issues already and pilots are now more aware that ECAM doesn't show all arising problems.
My question is, will the A320-X be modeled this deep? where all systems are interconnected like it is shown on the video?



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#2 CaptFarhadi

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:11 PM

according to details that developers told us,yes.they all will be simulated.
But,ECAM is flawless.i'm a 320 pilot and this sentense is one of the most useful sentenses ever been in aviation:"trust avionics,more than trusting yourself".so,it is prohibited not following ECAM procedures.and here's the golden rule:"in abnormal conditions,first of all:proceed ECAM intructions.after completing ecam actions,when comfort,take a look at QRH.if you have enough time,dig out what FCOM says"

#3 skycruiser253

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 02:02 PM

Can confirm that, CaptFardahi.
Kind Regards,

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#4 bstolle

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 02:58 PM

Well, there are a few items where you need to use common sense and not strictly follow the ECAM without thinking e.g. switching off the PTU in case of certain hydraulic failures.
ECAM can't be 'flawless' because it simply can't consider or handle all multiple failures.
After 25 years of airline flying I naturaly stopped believing in flawless planes, systems, avionics etc.

Luckily the relationship between Airbus and their customers has dramatically changed for the better since Tims docu.

The questions is, does the FSLabs A320 loose the PTU if it’s not switched off in time like the real one ?

#5 Bus_Driver

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 03:22 PM

Ok, real pilot answer! You can't and shouldn't always follow the ECAM to say anything otherwise is crazy.

The ECAM can't think!

For example, you have a bird strike affecting both engines on takeoff, one engine fails the other is on fire....

What will the ECAM tell you to do, you maybe surprised to know that because of the limitations of the ECAM logic it would ask you to shut down you only engine - clearly not the correct action!

There are also such things as ECAM exceptions which maybe the result of OEB's etc.

#6 CaptFarhadi

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 04:49 PM

Can confirm that, CaptFardahi.

not captain fardahi sir,its Captain Farhadi !

#7 CaptFarhadi

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 05:02 PM

Well, there are a few items where you need to use common sense and not strictly follow the ECAM without thinking e.g. switching off the PTU in case of certain hydraulic failures.
ECAM can't be 'flawless' because it simply can't consider or handle all multiple failures.
After 25 years of airline flying I naturaly stopped believing in flawless planes, systems, avionics etc.

Luckily the relationship between Airbus and their customers has dramatically changed for the better since Tims docu.

The questions is, does the FSLabs A320 loose the PTU if itís not switched off in time like the real one ?

surely not sir!actually maybe youre much more familliar with 320 than i am(25 years > 5 years captain!),i was just saying its compulsory for cockpit crew to proceed ecam procedures,but i have to add that its not prohibited for only CM1(not CM2)to add somethings else(not against ECAM) by his responibility if he thinks that his additives will help passengers comfort or abnormal/emergency handling in cockpit,during non normal situation

#8 bstolle

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 05:42 PM

.....i have to add that its not prohibited for only CM1(not CM2)to add somethings else....



Ouch, that certainly doesn’t sound like good CRM to me.... :(

#9 Konstantinos Kioussis

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 05:43 PM

"The questions is, does the FSLabs A320 loose the PTU if it’s not switched off in time like the real one ?"

There are certain failures that might lead to both hydraulic system lost if the PTU is operation during the first system failure, a case is when there is reservoir leak in G or Y and that would gradually kill the healthy system too because the PTU would try to pressurize an open system.

Even in the real thing this is dependent on service bulletin application. I can't recall the exact SB ref right now, but prior that the PTU should be manually shutoff if it failed to pressurize the lost system in certain time, after that , is done automatically.

We have simulated that ( the automatic implementation )

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#10 bstolle

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 06:01 PM

Wow, sounds like a 100% A320 sim!!!! Wish our A320 would have that feature! (We even have a few really old ones where you have to pull the CBs when flying on BAT only)

#11 Aerlingus231

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 06:44 PM

Ouch, that certainly doesn’t sound like good CRM to me.... :(

I think his point was that only the Commander can do it as ultimately, it is the Commander's responsibility to ensure the safety of the aircraft. Of course I'm sure the FO can suggest the action to the Commander, but the buck stops with the Commander and if he decides against it, then that's it.

Good CRM ensures that the Commander listens to his FO and engages with him, it doesn't diminish the responsibility of the Commander to ensure that all actions carried out are safe, not that the FO can do whatever he wants.

Also on the point of ignoring the ECAM, it is indeed allowed to ignore it and that's the reason as the above documentary states in that humans are far better at coming to a balanced decision than a black and white computer system.

Just my €0.02,

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Ró.

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#12 Lefteris Kalamaras

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 06:49 PM

... than a black and white computer system....


Thought they upgraded your Aer Lingus computers to colored screens, but I might be mistaken...

<ducks for cover>

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#13 Aerlingus231

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 06:56 PM

Thought they upgraded your Aer Lingus computers to colored screens, but I might be mistaken...

<ducks for cover>

Nah, the old timers aren't too fond of colour, said black and white always worked fine for them... :rolleyes: It's a slow process with them, we only recently taught them to stop calling the radio the "Wireless... :rolleyes: :P

Yes, gone are the days of our senior pilots shouting out "HAVE YOU GOT GANDER ON THE WIRELESS SONNY BOY!!!" - It's progress at it's best... :)

Give it 10 more years till they retire and we should have coloured screens...

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Ró.

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#14 CaptFarhadi

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:15 AM

read your airlines operation manual.i'm sure it will be like this:"CM1 has the final decision,but consulting with FO is one of the most important key points

#15 CaptFarhadi

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:52 AM



There are certain failures that might lead to both hydraulic system lost if the PTU is operation during the first system failure, a case is when there is reservoir leak in G or Y and that would gradually kill the healthy system too because the PTU would try to pressurize an open system.

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]Even in the real thing this is dependent on service bulletin application. I can't recall the exact SB ref right now, but prior that the PTU should be manually shutoff if it failed to pressurize the lost system in certain time, after that , is done automatically.

We have simulated that ( the automatic implementation )

??????????!!! PTU's only a shaft and two gear boxs Which connects Y and G drive pumps and it hasn't have ANY connection to resrvoirs!and over heats after about 3 minutes if the giving hyd press resrvoir is empty

#16 Aerlingus231

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 09:02 AM

WTF?! PTU's only a shaft and two gear boxs Which connects Y and G drive pumps and it hasn't have ANY connection to resrvoirs!and over heats after about 3 minutes if the giving hyd press resrvoir is empty

I don't think you read that right, Konstantinos is correct, he said exactly what you said.

Regards,
Ró.

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#17 CaptFarhadi

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:05 AM

I don't think you read that right, Konstantinos is correct, he said exactly what you said.

Regards,
Rů.

i thought he said PTU is a tube.if he didn't,i apologies.

#18 Lefteris Kalamaras

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:11 AM

WTF?!


Might we start being a bit more polite please?

Thank you.

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#19 CaptFarhadi

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 01:07 PM

excuse me Mr. kalamaras,i almost forgot it's a forum!sorry,i was Really surprised

#20 Lefteris Kalamaras

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 01:16 PM

It's not "a forum", it's the official Flight Sim Labs company support forum where we all behave and treat each other with respect. Expressions such as "WTF" (which means "what the f..ck") do not belong and are not tolerated. I was quite nice in my response and I expect that you can be as well.

Thank you.

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